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Large foils: kite vs wing thing

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slowboat
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Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby slowboat » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:52 am

Most people feel a large wing (bigger than 1600, for example) is "too big" for kiting. Yet, for winging, the foils are at least that big and often much bigger and they have no trouble riding swell and waves. Is the difference the lift created by the kite vs the wing thing?

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby bigtone667 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:04 am

slowboat wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:52 am
Most people feel a large wing (bigger than 1600, for example) is "too big" for kiting. Yet, for winging, the foils are at least that big and often much bigger and they have no trouble riding swell and waves. Is the difference the lift created by the kite vs the wing thing?
I ride a 2000cm2 on the kite/wing/SUP foil ...... They are slow and boring. My kite drags me along faster than the wing (meaning I could easily use a smaller foil). A kite generates more initial forward speed than a wing, meaning I could use a smaller foil for the initial lift.

I also own a 1400cm2 foil that I use for kite/wing. I cannot use it in super light winds on the wingdang because I cannot generate enough forward speed to get adequate lift but I sure can on the 2000cm2 foil.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby mike dubs » Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:45 am

Tone I’m 77kg and about to get a wing, was looking at getting the f one 1800 foil to get me up in low to mid teens wind. What dya think? Mike

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby tomtom » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:33 pm

On kite - kite pull you up in the air - so foils needs to lift less - especialy true with BIG kites in ultra lite wind. Thats why you will have problem to keep big wing down on kite. Vectors of pull are slightly different and more important there is more of them on kite :).
But as soon as you ditch you kite /literary/ you will find you kite HF wing not glidey enough.
Last edited by tomtom on Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby tomtom » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:39 pm

Right now i feel about 1600 cm2 is good compromise between manageability on kite power and yet kite less pumpability.
Good tip is changing stance /strapless/ as speed increase. Credit for Gunnar - its obvious but it wasnt for me till he tell me. He says thats is proper way to manage really big wings.
straped it puts too much strain to knees as you trying compensate for added lift from speed.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby foilholio » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:49 pm

I am always changing stance to whatever I feel like. This is something natural from riding surfboards.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 pm

slowboat wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:52 am
Most people feel a large wing (bigger than 1600, for example) is "too big" for kiting. Yet, for winging, the foils are at least that big and often much bigger and they have no trouble riding swell and waves. Is the difference the lift created by the kite vs the wing thing?

It is all about finding the balance that works.

When a foilwing is "too big" for kiting, it is simply because it feels slow and boring, AND, most importantly, it turns slow.
So we settle around sizes 750 to 1200 cm2 or something, depending on what you want, for kitefoil freeride and waves - works perfectly for "todays" style in kitefoiling.
It is not, IMO and experience, because it lifts too much - no problem no matter how big the foilwing gets.

When using a wing, we can get the same upward lift and forward power as with a kite - just a matter of the right wing size or wind.

BUT, with a kite we almost always have pull from the kite, it never "stops" really, even in jibes you can have it pull all the way around.
With a wing on a wingfoil, we very often like to ride without pull, super easy to sheet out, or just let it hang in your hand, so we get a lot of freedom just like foiling without "anything".
This is one of the reasons it is fun and can give us options not possible with a kite.
Making transitions, we alos have moments without any pull at all, while turning the wing and changing hands t.ex - so a bigger wing is great.
Also, for going wingfoiling in lower winds, pumping to get up on the foil and stay there, is needed, and requires a bigger foilwing.

Wingfoil boards are also a lot bigger, and it seems (right now) that the foilwing sizes have settled around 1500 to 2500 cm2.

They turn like dogs these sizes, compared to a kitefoil wing - but, it does not matter, as it turns quite balanced when you are wingfoiling, and feels right.

IMO it is because everything feels and works great on a wingfoil, with these sizes 15 to 2500 cm2.

Two very different sports actually, thus not the same foilwing sizes used.

8) Peter
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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby slowboat » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:10 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 pm
slowboat wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:52 am
Most people feel a large wing (bigger than 1600, for example) is "too big" for kiting. Yet, for winging, the foils are at least that big and often much bigger and they have no trouble riding swell and waves. Is the difference the lift created by the kite vs the wing thing?

It is all about finding the balance that works.

When a foilwing is "too big" for kiting, it is simply because it feels slow and boring, AND, most importantly, it turns slow.
So we settle around sizes 750 to 1200 cm2 or something, depending on what you want, for kitefoil freeride and waves - works perfectly for "todays" style in kitefoiling.
It is not, IMO and experience, because it lifts too much - no problem no matter how big the foilwing gets.

When using a wing, we can get the same upward lift and forward power as with a kite - just a matter of the right wing size or wind.

BUT, with a kite we almost always have pull from the kite, it never "stops" really, even in jibes you can have it pull all the way around.
With a wing on a wingfoil, we very often like to ride without pull, super easy to sheet out, or just let it hang in your hand, so we get a lot of freedom just like foiling without "anything".
This is one of the reasons it is fun and can give us options not possible with a kite.
Making transitions, we alos have moments without any pull at all, while turning the wing and changing hands t.ex - so a bigger wing is great.
Also, for going wingfoiling in lower winds, pumping to get up on the foil and stay there, is needed, and requires a bigger foilwing.

Wingfoil boards are also a lot bigger, and it seems (right now) that the foilwing sizes have settled around 1500 to 2500 cm2.

They turn like dogs these sizes, compared to a kitefoil wing - but, it does not matter, as it turns quite balanced when you are wingfoiling, and feels right.

IMO it is because everything feels and works great on a wingfoil, with these sizes 15 to 2500 cm2.

Two very different sports actually, thus not the same foilwing sizes used.

8) Peter
All that make sense but there are also complaints of a foiling having "too much lift" for kiting. I don't hear that complaint with wingdinging.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby tomtom » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:16 pm

Because they just have much more lift - and as much i agree with Peter about anything i dont think wing give you same upward lift than kite.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:13 pm

tomtom wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:16 pm
Because they just have much more lift - and as much i agree with Peter about anything i dont think wing give you same upward lift than kite.

Why should a similar powered wing not give the same upward lift as a kite?

I see no difference whatsoever...

Of course a lower AR wing is not efficient as a high AR foil kite, but we are only talking about the amount of possible upwards lift compared to sideways/forward lift.

It should work exactly the same, whether you have lines on your "kite", or not (wing) :D

8) Peter


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