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Large foils: kite vs wing thing

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Kamikuza
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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:10 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 pm
When a foilwing is "too big" for kiting, it is simply because it feels slow and boring, AND, most importantly, it turns slow.
The former is subjective, the latter is nonsense.

Unless you've some metric that defines "slow" different to all the ways I imagine you mean by slow...

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:10 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 pm
When a foilwing is "too big" for kiting, it is simply because it feels slow and boring, AND, most importantly, it turns slow.
The former is subjective, the latter is nonsense.

Unless you've some metric that defines "slow" different to all the ways I imagine you mean by slow...

Of course it is subjective, that's the whole idea, as you can not put numbers on what we feel.

When a wing gets too big for a kitefoiler, it is because it either turns or rides too slow, and most often both as they follow each other with increasing span and size :thumb:

Just a fact.

The very reason why some here has dropped the Moses 1100 for wingfoil also, is mostly because they feel it turns slow.

8) Peter

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:38 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:10 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 pm
When a foilwing is "too big" for kiting, it is simply because it feels slow and boring, AND, most importantly, it turns slow.
The former is subjective, the latter is nonsense.

Unless you've some metric that defines "slow" different to all the ways I imagine you mean by slow...

Of course it is subjective, that's the whole idea, as you can not put numbers on what we feel.

When a wing gets too big for a kitefoiler, it is because it either turns or rides too slow, and most often both as they follow each other with increasing span and size :thumb:

Just a fact.

The very reason why some here has dropped the Moses 1100 for wingfoil also, is mostly because they feel it turns slow.

8) Peter
You're literally the only person I know who complains about big foils being "slow" -- everyone else who doesn't like bigger foils is put off by the additional lift.

I can drive my 1500cm2 wing around carving turns tighter and faster than the 1000cm2 wing because it's so much more stable. And if I choose, I can slow it right down and not outrun the wave, using ever smaller kites. Being able to ride slower and lower with more glide is the attraction of bigger wings.

I've decided that the reason I don't like bigger wings now is the same reason I don't like big kites -- too much like hard work.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby grigorib » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:58 pm

My definition of slow is rather low cruising speed at usual kite pull. Of course you can push a thick wing go fast and there’s no doubt large wings can go very slow too. Yet it’s probably cruising speed that is personal preference for each rider.

I see riders dropping 633 for 20% thinner 683s/679. Rders are dropping thick 483/450 stabilizers for thinner 425/420/421 and same riders will pop up onto large thin wings like 800 because of excellent geometry, glide, lowend and high speed
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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:55 am

grigorib wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:58 pm
My definition of slow is rather low cruising speed at usual kite pull. Of course you can push a thick wing go fast and there’s no doubt large wings can go very slow too. Yet it’s probably cruising speed that is personal preference for each rider.

I see riders dropping 633 for 20% thinner 683s/679. Rders are dropping thick 483/450 stabilizers for thinner 425/420/421 and same riders will pop up onto large thin wings like 800 because of excellent geometry, glide, lowend and high speed
So it’s not big wings, it’s slow, inefficient wings. How about that.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby bigtone667 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:04 pm

I am pretty happy to kite, SUP foil and Wing foil on an AXIS 1020 or 1010 ........ I just added excitement by going the ultra short fuselage and tiny rear wings. Once I get an 1150 I will probably dump the 1010 and stick with two monsters for everything.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby bragnouff » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:17 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:38 pm
(...)
Being able to ride slower and lower with more glide is the attraction of bigger wings.
(...)
But then, there's a point where riding so slow is getting boring, and you hit diminishing returns. Too big of a foil, and you have to coerce it more into turning, into going faster than its slower natural cruising speed, need to be more careful about not ventilating a tip, and not hitting your lower legs. All other parameters being equal, there's always be more drag with a bigger foil. Going slow usually doesn't really go well with the dynamics of a kite, and it restricts the potential of the kite if it is always close to the window's edge.
A 1200cm2 foil can already be kited super slow (when needed), and can provide all the lift you'll ever need, so I don't see a reason to go any bigger, apart for novelty and experimentation.

Wingfoiling possibly has some different dynamics at play. The number one issue being to achieve liftoff early with limited available power, and no way to source a large spike of power through loops and window traverses. That's a good incentive for going big! Top speed takes a hit, but that's the price to pay.

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:46 am

bragnouff wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:17 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:38 pm
(...)
Being able to ride slower and lower with more glide is the attraction of bigger wings.
(...)
But then, there's a point where riding so slow is getting boring, and you hit diminishing returns. Too big of a foil, and you have to coerce it more into turning, into going faster than its slower natural cruising speed, need to be more careful about not ventilating a tip, and not hitting your lower legs. All other parameters being equal, there's always be more drag with a bigger foil. Going slow usually doesn't really go well with the dynamics of a kite, and it restricts the potential of the kite if it is always close to the window's edge.
A 1200cm2 foil can already be kited super slow (when needed), and can provide all the lift you'll ever need, so I don't see a reason to go any bigger, apart for novelty and experimentation.

Wingfoiling possibly has some different dynamics at play. The number one issue being to achieve liftoff early with limited available power, and no way to source a large spike of power through loops and window traverses. That's a good incentive for going big! Top speed takes a hit, but that's the price to pay.
You don't have to ride it/them all the time ;) If you only planned on buying one wing or foil at a time then that would affect your decision, but it's pretty cheap to get another wing. I know you got more than one :D

Venting a tip is fine, more stable wing with more area in the water -- matters less than smaller wings.

There's also more lift with a bigger foil. Design matters -- slow wings, whatever their size, are slow. Big wings need not be -- some of the race wings at the beach I'm seeing are very wide.

I think 1200cm2 is already considered a "big win"g for kiting...

Don't always love the effort of muscling around the bigger wings either, but it's all about trade-offs -- we don't go out in 30 knots with a 12m kite ... unless we have to :lol:
Last edited by Kamikuza on Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kamikuza
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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:48 am

bigtone667 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:04 pm
I am pretty happy to kite, SUP foil and Wing foil on an AXIS 1020 or 1010 ........ I just added excitement by going the ultra short fuselage and tiny rear wings. Once I get an 1150 I will probably dump the 1010 and stick with two monsters for everything.
Yeah but you're a weirdo :lol: short fuse/small stab certainly enlivens the big wings...

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Re: Large foils: kite vs wing thing

Postby bragnouff » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:32 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:46 am
...
You don't have to ride it/them all the time ;) If you only planned on buying one wing or foil at a time then that would affect your decision, but it's pretty cheap to get another wing. I know you got more than one :D
For sure! I think I have settled on the happy combo for me at the moment. GoFoil Kai (1200) for kiting, and IWA front wing (1700) for wingfoiling. I've also used the Kai for Winging, and IWA for kiting, but that's much better the other way around.
And despite having a van and plenty of capacity to carry lots of gear around, it's actually nice to have something quite streamlined. Takes 5mn to go from one to the other, good on the wallet too!


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