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The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

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slowboat
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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby slowboat » Fri May 15, 2020 10:28 pm

I have had a 100% commitment to learning to "surf" waves with a kite and hydrofoil for the past 3 years, with around 180 sessions per year. Started with Clouds and as my hydrofoil skills improved, found that they did not drift well enough. Switched to Peak 4's and Concept Air Fireflys and also found that they do not drift well enough as I got onto bigger and bigger waves. A decent bottom turn from a head high wave towards the kite and the Peak 4 just totally falls out of the sky. Kites are great for jumping and racing a foil but not a good tool for surfing (meaning, riding the wave energy only). My favorite experience on waves are actually those few seconds when my kite has slack-lined out of the sky and I just say f*** it and keep surfing for as long as I can before cleaning up the mess. After a few of those incidents, I started my wing journey.

I came to the same conclusions as Gunnar before seeing this video:

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ladomi
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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby ladomi » Sat May 16, 2020 12:50 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:44 pm
A. Technically Peter is right.... you should try a peak. Your roam may be awesome, but it is not at all like a peak when it comes to drift.
The Roam is very good for an inflatable wave kite but I kite in onshore wind and as good as it is I know it's very limited in this regard. I have been following the drifting performance of certain foil kites (CA Wave and Firefly, as well as the Peak) with great interest for around a year before Peter had his revelation about the Peak. I would absolutely buy a Peak immediately if I had the funds. That being said, I have not yet seen a video with any kitefoiler riding weak disorganized swell in onshore conditions with the kite drifting for 1' 30". If there is one I'd love to see it.
B. It's a totally different sport. Take away the kite, take away the wing, and forget about power, dexterity, upwind and anything other than simply the board and foil. Nice to get long rides, but at what cost? The sedate character of the ride on gear that size is just too much of a sacrifice. If it were in conditions that you could not kite in, you might have something, but in that clip.... give me the higher performance ride of a kite/foil set up every time.
You are entitled to your preference. For me the feeling of the kite disappearing and floating along using just the power of minimal swell and some pumping is super fun and I only get that feeling for less than 10 seconds. If a wing let's me do it longer than any kite, I'll take that everytime.

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Slappysan
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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby Slappysan » Sat May 16, 2020 1:12 am

norcom wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:27 pm
The one thing the surf foil made me realize is how much of a hindrance the kite becomes once I'm foiling on a wave. Even with my Peaks4 3/4/5m at some point I have to grab the bar and redirect it to keep drifting; ride, pump, repeat.
I too foil exclusively with Peak4, but never in "real" waves but small ones you can surf. My question is what's the problem with having to redirect the kite? Why is it such a hindrance for you?

For me the hindrance in this situation with normal kites was that redirecting the kite would cause it to power up and start pulling me taking me off the wave. I don't have this issue with the Peak4, I can easily loop it to keep it flying without causing it to pull me at all. With the Peak4 I can stay true to the wave even though I can't just forget about the kite. I'm sure you still have to "fly" your wing even when switched to the grab handle, you can't just do anything you want with it. Sure it's probably easier (I've never wing'd) but I just don't see the challenge in flying a Peak4 without causing it to pull me when I'm on a wave.

With bigger faster waves I'm sure that comes to a point where it might not work, but for crappy windswell like 95% of us get I think it's fine.

I can see the appeal to winging for 3 reasons:
1) Real groundswell wave riding
2) Ability to launch/land in sketchy conditions
3) You don't have to take lessons

For me, where I live (not Hawaii), the only reason I would consider the wing would be summer time beach restrictions to kites. I would imagine flat water winging to be rather boring, but maybe I'm wrong.

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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby norcom » Sat May 16, 2020 1:27 am

Slappysan wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:12 am
My question is what's the problem with having to redirect the kite? Why is it such a hindrance for you?
Because I can pump the foil for over 30 seconds now. I'm riding janky waves and once up on one I can easily ride and pump to the next one. It's not that the Peak pulls me off, it's not that I have to redirect it. Peaks are awesome! But that feeling where I'm freely surfing and not using the kite is ADDICTING! The reason I think we love the Peaks is that they feel so easy and light. It's like they're not there when you don't need them. Once I'm up on the wave I like to let go of the bar and let the Peak drift; which it does extremely well. BUT once I finish riding the janky wave, I pump to the next one and that's where I have to grab the bar, redirect and make sure it sits in the proper position before I can ride the next wave. Sometimes it's flawless but other time's I miss it. So the whole free flying experience is lost. That's the only "hindrance" I'm referring to. I couldn't do any of that without a kite.

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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat May 16, 2020 1:41 am

Thanks slowboat,

even if my experience is not Yours and Gunnar's. Main reason could be that you both have very good wave spots with big fast running waves in comparison to wind speed.

I am just riding in continental european small wind wave conditions that are rideable, but just when there are > 22 knts wind speeds and so no problem with drift, when riding never more than 15 knts in downwind turns.

The main lesson I learned from winging was to just hook of during kiting which now turns as far to think about having sessions without harness and build special 2 liner style bars for it.

Haven't lost interest for winging, but much more enthusiastic for unhooked wave foiling with peaks. And while agreeing with some advantages of wings, for my conditions there are much more on the kite side:

- much smaller packed tiny kitefoil board with peak and without pump
- no wing that blocks your view in the riding direction (as it has sucked also with windsurfing), but just a one hand holded bar floating above your head (even a floating wing still blocks a lot of view on to wave to me)
- also don't see any relevant difference in freedom of movement, with 20 m lines the kite always drifting in the zenith there is nothing that blocks you when fast turnig 6 m to left and 6 m right,
the opposite, if you want to exit the wave with a backflip landed on the foil, just grab bar with two hands and do it, ... with a wing, well maybe if you are Philippe Caneri ... not so easy
- I think still a bit easier to have a bit wider windrange and to go faster upwind to get more wave time with a Peak that you can loop for start
- in 5 knots you may loop yourself faster downwind back to shore with the Peak and if not using a very fat board you also don't go upwind anymore with a wing
- when the peak is packed on a small board in < 4 knots for sure you don't swim home as fast as with a bigger wing board, but how often in wave conditions?
But if you let out the air out of the wing you can't rearm it on the water, the Peak you can, when learned from about 8 knts when the wind turns back ...

So to me not all black and white

Would be interested if you have tried unhooked with a Peak?

On waves I completely stopped being hooked since some month, as it just doesn't make any sense to me. Wanting to say that the difference is so big to me which was the most important lesson learned from winging. :thumb:

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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby jumptheshark » Sat May 16, 2020 2:45 am

Unhooked kite wave foiling.

Legend!

ladomi
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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby ladomi » Sat May 16, 2020 5:40 am

juandesooka wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm

... and this wing right now is the lacey lingerie that just makes it even better.
:lol: that's pretty good.

Curious what you have for a wing? I've got the 5.3 and 3.6 Naish S25's on order.

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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby Wazza Foil » Sat May 16, 2020 8:02 am

ladomi wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:40 am
juandesooka wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm

... and this wing right now is the lacey lingerie that just makes it even better.
:lol: that's pretty good.

Curious what you have for a wing? I've got the 5.3 and 3.6 Naish S25's on order.
I have the 3.6, 4.6 and 6 Naish S25s, u will love them. Windows are a bonus and I realised this when borrowing a friend without windows.
4.6 is becoming my favorite atm.

slowboat
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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby slowboat » Sat May 16, 2020 10:16 am

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juandesooka
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Re: The reason to wing. Can't do this with a kite

Postby juandesooka » Sat May 16, 2020 5:30 pm

ladomi wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:40 am
juandesooka wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm

... and this wing right now is the lacey lingerie that just makes it even better.
:lol: that's pretty good.

Curious what you have for a wing? I've got the 5.3 and 3.6 Naish S25's on order.
I have 7m Gong Gen1 and a 4m Ozone V1. I started with a Gong 5m, but knew right away it didn't have enough low-end grunt, sold it and traded up. I am still not really sure about the 7m, I may move on to another brand/model to seek that magic light wind option. I think those first Gong's are too floppy to generate enough power in pumping.

The 4m wasp is a magic wing, comparatively. So solid and efficient, just feels right. A 6m ozone is a leading contender for an upgrade. F-one is the other best in show in early reviews. Both priced accordingly! New Naish is getting a lot of love online too.

My dream remains to have this wingthing be a functional wave riding alternative in 10-15kts and surf.....above 15kt, I would more like kitesurf....at least once this wing-honeymoon period has passed. ;-)


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