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high aspect foils

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joekitetime
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Re: high aspect foils

Postby joekitetime » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:23 pm

tkaraszewski wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:55 pm
slowboat wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:02 pm
Let me first say that no one should be upset by your questions or scepticism, I certainly am not. To answer your question specifically, what that clips shows is someone foiling without being pulled. Yup, that is it. That is the key idea that appeals to me about winging. There are people who say so what? To them, I say there is nothing here for you, move on. But to me (and many others), the beauty of foiling without being pulled is that it means you can ride a wave with a foil without being pulled= true foil surfing. At this point, people will interject with how well their kite drifts......yada, yada, yada. Again, if you are happy foiling in waves with your kite, have fun.....there is nothing here for you.

As far as winging being a passing fad, I think you are wrong but time will tell.
I started with the same attitude that jumptheshark has. But I tried wingfoiling during lockdown when all of the kite launches were closed, but one windsurf launch was still open. After some initial frustration, it's been much more fun once I've gotten the hang of it. It has its pluses and minuses compared to kitefoiling. What I do not understand is slowboat's point of view, which is essentially the same as the view of everyone who's gone to smaller and smaller kites with as little pull and as much drift as possible. "Foiling without being pulled". Yeah, the wing can be "foiling without being pulled", but you're either being pulled or you're being pushed and I don't see why some people think being pushed is so much better. I grew up surfing and have been sailing for many years, and they're different, sure, but riding the power of the ocean (which, to be clear, is all wind-generated anyway) versus riding the power of the sky (wind power directly) doesn't strike me as one being particularly "better" than the other. They're both pretty amazing, but a lot of people on here seem to want "pure" wave power. Which makes me wonder why they bothered to get a kite (or wing) at all. A plain old surfboard is cheaper and simpler.

Not meaning to be critical, I just have never understood why so many people on a kite forum seem to the think the ideal kite would be no kite at all.
The best kite is no kite at all. That is a progression I've been on for about 3-4 years now. Not that it is better or worse, just my progression. As I've gotten better winging, I started flying smaller and smaller wings until my current 2.8m with larger foils. On foil, I'm relaxed with a very light grip on the wing, barely using a couple fingers to hold it. I use the wing to get back upwind, to get on foil, and when the river swell fades and I need a boost of power to stay on foil. Foiling with the wing providing the power is fun, but not as fun as gliding with the wing relaxed or in the nuetral position. But, another aspect that seems like it could be fun is super high speeds with a huge wing and race foil, but I haven't messed with that yet. But I will say the flying a small wing rather than a large wing, when you can, is much more pleasant. It is lighter, less fatigue on the arms and easier to manuever. The point of this is possibly to shed some light on the fact that yes, the best wing is no wing. But as you've seen in so many videos, getting up on foil is a challenge without some help (5 buddies on the beach with a rope, buddy on a bike with a rope, long bungee, boat to tow you onto foil, etc). The fact is that us mortals need assistance to get on foil. My biggest complaint kite foiling was once on foil I couldn't set the kite down (realistically) or turn it off. I felt overpowered far too often. I love being able to shut the wing off and put it down. I don't mind when I'm holding the wing, but I prefer not to be.

So the progression is addicting. This past weekend I was lit on my 2.8m and wished I had a 1.9 (2.8 is FONEs smallest wing) but I did want smaller. It was windy.

I think the buzz is from foiling unencumbered. I think that is part of the addiction.

Anyway, hope that helps.
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tkaraszewski
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Re: high aspect foils

Postby tkaraszewski » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:26 pm

joekitetime wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:23 pm
tkaraszewski wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:55 pm
slowboat wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:02 pm
Let me first say that no one should be upset by your questions or scepticism, I certainly am not. To answer your question specifically, what that clips shows is someone foiling without being pulled. Yup, that is it. That is the key idea that appeals to me about winging. There are people who say so what? To them, I say there is nothing here for you, move on. But to me (and many others), the beauty of foiling without being pulled is that it means you can ride a wave with a foil without being pulled= true foil surfing. At this point, people will interject with how well their kite drifts......yada, yada, yada. Again, if you are happy foiling in waves with your kite, have fun.....there is nothing here for you.

As far as winging being a passing fad, I think you are wrong but time will tell.
I started with the same attitude that jumptheshark has. But I tried wingfoiling during lockdown when all of the kite launches were closed, but one windsurf launch was still open. After some initial frustration, it's been much more fun once I've gotten the hang of it. It has its pluses and minuses compared to kitefoiling. What I do not understand is slowboat's point of view, which is essentially the same as the view of everyone who's gone to smaller and smaller kites with as little pull and as much drift as possible. "Foiling without being pulled". Yeah, the wing can be "foiling without being pulled", but you're either being pulled or you're being pushed and I don't see why some people think being pushed is so much better. I grew up surfing and have been sailing for many years, and they're different, sure, but riding the power of the ocean (which, to be clear, is all wind-generated anyway) versus riding the power of the sky (wind power directly) doesn't strike me as one being particularly "better" than the other. They're both pretty amazing, but a lot of people on here seem to want "pure" wave power. Which makes me wonder why they bothered to get a kite (or wing) at all. A plain old surfboard is cheaper and simpler.

Not meaning to be critical, I just have never understood why so many people on a kite forum seem to the think the ideal kite would be no kite at all.
The best kite is no kite at all. That is a progression I've been on for about 3-4 years now. Not that it is better or worse, just my progression. As I've gotten better winging, I started flying smaller and smaller wings until my current 2.8m with larger foils. On foil, I'm relaxed with a very light grip on the wing, barely using a couple fingers to hold it. I use the wing to get back upwind, to get on foil, and when the river swell fades and I need a boost of power to stay on foil. Foiling with the wing providing the power is fun, but not as fun as gliding with the wing relaxed or in the nuetral position. But, another aspect that seems like it could be fun is super high speeds with a huge wing and race foil, but I haven't messed with that yet. But I will say the flying a small wing rather than a large wing, when you can, is much more pleasant. It is lighter, less fatigue on the arms and easier to manuever. The point of this is possibly to shed some light on the fact that yes, the best wing is no wing. But as you've seen in so many videos, getting up on foil is a challenge without some help (5 buddies on the beach with a rope, buddy on a bike with a rope, long bungee, boat to tow you onto foil, etc). The fact is that us mortals need assistance to get on foil. My biggest complaint kite foiling was once on foil I couldn't set the kite down (realistically) or turn it off. I felt overpowered far too often. I love being able to shut the wing off and put it down. I don't mind when I'm holding the wing, but I prefer not to be.

So the progression is addicting. This past weekend I was lit on my 2.8m and wished I had a 1.9 (2.8 is FONEs smallest wing) but I did want smaller. It was windy.

I think the buzz is from foiling unencumbered. I think that is part of the addiction.

Anyway, hope that helps.
I still don't get it. There are several foil sports that don't require you to hold a wing or kite as you ride waves. SUP foil, surf foil, etc. Why not do those if you don't like kites/wings/sails?

joekitetime
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Re: high aspect foils

Postby joekitetime » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:53 pm

tkaraszewski wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:26 pm
joekitetime wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:23 pm


I still don't get it. There are several foil sports that don't require you to hold a wing or kite as you ride waves. SUP foil, surf foil, etc. Why not do those if you don't like kites/wings/sails?
Great question. Actually I will be sup foiling in the winter. Due to a couple shoulder surgeries I really can't prone paddle more than a minute. But, it isn't about ditching the wing all-together, it is just about using it less and less. Lots of kiters go thru the same progression, learning to make smaller and smaller kites work. They are easier to rig, more fun to fly, safer. The wing is a means to an end. Where I live we have and river swell. The wing is the easiest way to ride the river swell so I use a wing. It is also the easiest to rig, de-rig and manage all-together.

Winging is a progression from kite dependence towards indepedence, and larger foils or faster foils also lead towards less reliance on the wind. But there will always be a little.

I think the best way to understand it would be to go out on a given day on a 6m, 5m then 4m wing. If they all worked, which was the most fun to fly. I'll bet if there was any swell you'd vote the 4m. Less is better...

Dave_H
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Re: high aspect foils

Postby Dave_H » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:24 pm

I am also trying to understand the front wing dimensions of all the foil models available from different manufacturers on an apples to apples basis. I saw an image of a comparison table that appears to do this. Does anyone know where to find a link or a copy of the full document shown below? I ran across the image from the document in a post on the Seabreeze.au.com SUP forum.
foil specs.JPG

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Re: high aspect foils

Postby slowboat » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:08 pm

Probably not that useful to compare specs between manufacturers unless they all standardize their methodology. For example, in calculating AR, some use actual SA, others use projected.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: high aspect foils

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:15 pm

slowboat wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:08 pm
Probably not that useful to compare specs between manufacturers unless they all standardize their methodology. For example, in calculating AR, some use actual SA, others use projected.

True, but difference is pretty small so okay.
The major problem is you would need a CL max and a Cl/Cd max, and a Cd min also, to be able to compare.
As some wings are twice as thick as others, both good and bad.

But these parameters are just as, often more important than span and area only.

8) Peter


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