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Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:37 pm
by joekitetime
I've had the chance now to test these foils back to back and so I offer my opinions to any interested...

Housekeeping: Moses 1000 front wing, standard kite fuse, 420 stab, 72cm carbon mast...
Fone 1480 stock with 75cm carbon mast
Board: fone 5'0" 60 liters
wings: fone swings, 3.5, 4.2 and 5m (all used for testing)...
conditions: winds steady, 12-25 in river swell

I've riden the 1000 extensively and purchased and have been riding the Fone Phantom 1480. Generally speaking these setups are incredibly similar. After all the analysis I could be happy on either foil setup.

But there are some differences:

LOW END: the phantom gets on foil slightly easier, ever so slightly. It has the tendency to want to "jump" prematurely from time to time to get on foil. The Moses 1000 gets on foil very easily and is a bit more predictable in its takeoff. The both can be ridden incredibly slowly and will stay on foil, especially with the wing overhead. You can crawl with nearly no speed with either foil.

TOP END: the moses hands down is faster top end. The phantom isn't slow, it is pretty fast, but the Moses is faster.

CHARACTERISTICS AT SPEED: The phantom is much smoother which is how I would characterize its general disposition. The moses whistles dixie, the phanton is quiet. The moses is more prone to cavitation (from vegetation in the water, air bubbles, slight wing tip breach) whereas the phantom doesn't seem to have small cavitation issues. Some of it could be due to speed.

GENERAL RIDE: The phantom is gentle, smooth and quiet. It is soft. It is easy to ride. It is predictable. The Moses on the other hand is edgy, like a race horse wanting to be freed, crisp, fast, hard. The moses is stiffer in the roll but easy to turn in the yaw. The Moses is a fighter, the phantom is a lover. They are both very, very stable. They both point well. They both work well at any speed. The phantom carves a tad better, just a tad.

WEIGHT: The Moses is lighter.

QUALITY: The Moses seems better built in the machining and layup, carbon is flawless. Phantom is good, but just not quite as good, but still really good. The parts line up well, but just ever so slightly less well than the Moses. The Phantom comes with some nice covers. With Moses they are extra. I like the beefier mast base to board connection bolts with Moses. The phanton has m6 rather than m8 bolts. They probably work fine but I'm used to something beefier. The phantom takes longer to put together.

GLIDE AND PUMPING: Both wings glide and pump well. They feel a little different. I can pump further with the Moses, but I can pump better toe-side with the phanton. Don't know why. The phantom is easier to pump - probably because it has a softer roll. The Moses is edgy and has less drag - has a higher aspect ratio so the pumps seem to produce more drive. I can pump further on the Moses and better on the Phantom.

CARVING: The phantom is a tad easier to carve than the moses, but they both carve well. It has been said to me and I find it to be true that you want a foil that is great fast and slow, and you learn how to make it carve. It you buy a good carving wing and that is all it does then you will never have the top end speed and you end up with a lot of drag on the low end. I love carving wings, but now I've learned to make it a point to learn to carve the high aspect wings, and I get to keep the benefits of the high and low end, so I get all three.

PRICING:
Using Mackite's website for pricing (and that is where I buy my gear)
Moses 1000 w/fuse, 420 and covers: $1425 with below mast $2,298
Phanton 1480, $1259 with below mast $2258
***does not include mast which is
Moses 72 carbon $873
FOne 75 carbon $999
Price wise they are nearly identical...

In the end I haven't proven that there is much of a difference between these foils, because there isn't.

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:53 pm
by omg
very very nice review! How do you find the mast stifness between the two?

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:45 am
by Wazza Foil
Just ordered the W1000

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:03 pm
by max
Wazza Foil wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:45 am
Just ordered the W1000
will need a review between the W1000 and the W1100 :D

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:23 pm
by Slyde
do you think the difference in mast length influenced your opinions between the two?

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:47 pm
by joekitetime
Mast length, stiffness and the 1100 foil by Moses...

Regarding stiffness between the Fone 75cm carbon mast, and the Moses 72cm, I find no difference in stiffness. Having not weighed, the Fone "feels" heavier to hold. I sold the 72cm so I can't weigh, but the Moses feels lighter.

Regarding the length, 3cm is approx. 1-1/4". Barely a noticeable difference, so I'd say no difference "for all intents and purposes"...

Regarding the 1000 and 1100, there is considerable differences between these 2 foils.
Low end: very similar...
High end: the 1000 is significantly faster with discernibly less drag.
Carving: the 1000, for some reason, feels easier to carve. Perhaps because having less drag it is quicker to turn on the yaw axis. While the 1000 does have roll stability, as does the 1100, the 1000 falls a bit looser in the roll. It feels more forgiving.

The really like the 1000 over the 1100 for all winging purposes.

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:56 pm
by Slyde
Ok maybe it’s a typo but the housekeeping said you were comparing at 72cm Moses vs an 85 cm FOne mast. 13cm makes quite a bit of difference to the way a foil feels. Probably won’t change speed and glide much but carving and reactivity and pumping will be different. But thanks for the review.

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:41 pm
by joekitetime
My bad, sorry! 72cm mast (Moses) vs 75cm mast (FONE).

I'll go correct it now, thanks!

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:00 pm
by Frankieboy
joekitetime wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:47 pm

Low end: very similar...
Hi JKT,
Can you elaborate on this as the 1100 is 2100cm2 and the 1000 only 987cm2?
tx

Re: Moses 1000 vs Fone Phantom 1480

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:16 pm
by joekitetime
Frankieboy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:00 pm
joekitetime wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:47 pm

Low end: very similar...
Hi JKT,
Can you elaborate on this as the 1100 is 2100cm2 and the 1000 only 987cm2?
tx
I'm no aeronautical engineer, so no techy elaboration. However, I can try to add a few things from my experience.

Higher aspect wings (like the Moses 1000) provide more lift due to their design than comparably sized lower aspect wings. So right there that tells you that the formula is not size = lift, but rather, design = lift. Or, aspect ratio = lift. The higher the aspect ratio, the more the lift. The downside to this is roll factor. Winging or foiling is not just about lift, it is also about manueverability. The higher the aspect ratio, the stiffer the ride.

I found the Moses 1000 to be the easiest foil to get on foil in light wind (compared to the 1100, 873, or 790). The 873 actually bumped on foil a bit slower, but was not easier. But, immediately on foil the 1000 felt significantly faster and less drag was immediately noticeable.

So, super, super good low end, and super good top end. But slightly stiffer than the other mentioned foils which took a little bit of time to get used to (like one session amount of time).

I found the 1000 to be superior to all the other Moses foils.

But it is also edgy. It isn't soft. Edgy like a race horse. Edgy and stiff.

I switched to the fone phantoms and I now I'd say I prefer them to the Moses line, but that is a tangent.

But, the 1000 provides more lift than the 1100 due to its higher aspect ratio, possibly partly due to the fact that there is less drag.

I hope that helps some!

Conversely, I find the 790 to be slow and draggy. I like this when powered and riding in steep chop/swell, when super powered on the wing and lots of energy to burn because it isn't needed. Overpowered the 790 is nice, easy to ride and more fun. Certainly underpowered the 1000 is better. I would have only those 2 Moses wings for winging.