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Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby plummet » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:01 pm

I have zero interest in winging. To me it looks like the worst of both worlds between kiting and windsurfing.

Anyway, I am not a waterman seeking more ways to get on the water. I'm a kite flyer that flies his kite on the water because its fun. When i'm in a location to fly my kites on the land in a buggy or landboard I do that too.

That said, I would love a try a wing on my longboard skateboard. So maybe I dont have zero interest. Just zero interest for water winging.

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby OzBungy » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:38 am

adriatic wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:18 pm
...

My take is that it's harder than kiting (and easier than sup foiling) from a fitness standpoint only.

So if one isn't really fit, it may seem to be more technical than kite foiling or nailing an unhooked trick, even though it really isn't?
I find that winging gets physically easier and easier as my technique improves and adapts.

At first there was a lot of effort in chasing speed and power to try and get up on the foil and to stay up once foiling. That was kind of futile and part of the newbie winger experience. There was so much effort and no time to explore the subtleties of foot and hand and wing timing and placement.

As I started riding in more wind it was easier to get up on the foil and I had more time to experiment. Now most things that were hard are much easier.

I find that when I am riding, if my arms feel a lot of pressure, if I adjust the position of the wing and/or my hands to make that pressure disappear. Similarly, I move my feet around a fair bit experimenting with different trimming.

One thing I am still working on. The upwind performance is still quite poor compared to a kite foil. That leads to very long runs to gain ground (similar to windsurfers). That reduces amount of gybing practice I get. Gybes are easy enough to do but it's hard to build consistency without lots of practice. Every failed wing gybe attempt is a bit of lost ground that has to be made up. I assume that will get better. With a kite foil I can do as many gybes and tacks as I want and still be upwind of my starting point.

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby bragnouff » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:12 am

OzBungy wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:38 am
The upwind performance is still quite poor compared to a kite foil. That leads to very long runs to gain ground (similar to windsurfers). That reduces amount of gybing practice I get. Gybes are easy enough to do but it's hard to build consistency without lots of practice. Every failed wing gybe attempt is a bit of lost ground that has to be made up.
That's a good incentive to tack more, which is maybe where winging can have the edge over other sports. Best to gain 10m upwind than lose 10 or 20 gybing.

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby Flyboy » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:19 am

Yesterday had my first session in which there were more people winging than kiting at my local spot. Well, actually, I was the only person kiting - don't know where everybody else was - with two guys winging.

Beautiful day with wind in the high teens - 20 knots all afternoon. I rode my foil with a 6m kite very powered up. The strongest wind I've foiled in so far.

The two guys winging were obviously less experienced than I am on my kite foil. One of them is a windsurfer - probably the best local windsurfer - he throws double forwards when the wind's up. He now spends most of the time wind foiling, it's the first time I've seem him winging. The other guy is, I believe, a surfer - he was obviously more experienced with the wing than the windsurfer dude.

What I noticed: I was able to ride faster. I was also able to point higher. And I was constantly powered through transitions, whereas the wingers often had this awkward moment in which they had to pump to get going again. A lot of that has presumably to do with lack of experience.

The wingers were able to ride the swells completely depowered at times ... but completely depowered means riding straight down the face of the swell, not carving up & down the face as the swell was not steep enough for that. Essentially I was able to slingshot my way onto a swell with more power ... not sure that's really a disadvantage. It's definitely more dynamic.

But then you've got this:



Doesn't seem to be any wind at all. In any case, no way you could do that kite foiling. And on the more extreme end:


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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby OzBungy » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:57 am

bragnouff wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:12 am
OzBungy wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:38 am
The upwind performance is still quite poor compared to a kite foil. That leads to very long runs to gain ground (similar to windsurfers). That reduces amount of gybing practice I get. Gybes are easy enough to do but it's hard to build consistency without lots of practice. Every failed wing gybe attempt is a bit of lost ground that has to be made up.
That's a good incentive to tack more, which is maybe where winging can have the edge over other sports. Best to gain 10m upwind than lose 10 or 20 gybing.
Except for when you fall. I just measured from my last track log and it takes 20-30 metres to gybe, fall, remount, ride off. A failed tack may save some of that distance, or not.

I'm not really up to tacking just yet. I'm only making about 1/3 of my gybes and depending on the day, only half of those are perfect foiling gybes.

And yet again, as well as the upwind performance, the massive power of a kite makes kite foiling tacks easy.

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby mr_daruman » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:12 pm

Correct gear is super important.
I started winging with a 1400cm2 foil and a 4m2 wing...Hated it, couldn't get going flying around 10 knots wind. Needed at least 15 to 20 knots. Went back to kitefoiling.
Then I tried a 5.5 / 6m2 wing with a 2400cm2 foil, 5'2 90L board. Was actually super fun in around 10 knots wind. Could ride between waves just lightly pumping without using the wing. Technique/level went up, now could ride a 1800cm2 foil in same conditions.

Whats superior to kitesurfing :
You can ride weird winds and side-off is super easy. This gives you the added bonus of super clean waves.
You don't need a beach/ launching area. This with the various wind directions thats possible is huge. Ridable spots increased x2.
30+ knots wind. Its effortless and feels 100% safe even if super gusty.
Easier learning, quick progression, feels safer. Could never get my wife to keep kitesurfing...Now she actually WANTS to go windfoiling. Days riding, x2!

The same:
Gear setup, whatever everyone says, takes the exact same amount of time as kitesurfing. Yea you have lines in kitesurfing, but you have a bigger board and foil to carry around/setup winging.
Pumping is the same due to the larger bladders. Deflating takes longer.
With tube kites, low end is the same if you use 2000cm2+ wings and dont weight 100kg.

The negatives:
Its a pain to carry the gear long ways. So doesnt work for some spots were you park far away...
It can get VERY physical. I tire way faster than kitesurfing (2 hours, 3 hours? no problem), usually ride 30 minutes then take a break.
The boards still feel too thick and big...thats a hard one because if the wind drops, you dont want to sink when your 1 mile out.
Jumps feel...tiny coming from kites.

Now looking for a 60L to 70L under 5' board :)
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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby pākihiroa » Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:22 pm

This is all the inspiration and convincing I need. Pure poetry in motion. YMMV.


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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby Flyboy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:05 pm

mr_daruman wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:12 pm
Correct gear is super important.
I started winging with a 1400cm2 foil and a 4m2 wing...Hated it, couldn't get going flying around 10 knots wind. Needed at least 15 to 20 knots. Went back to kitefoiling.
Then I tried a 5.5 / 6m2 wing with a 2400cm2 foil, 5'2 90L board. Was actually super fun in around 10 knots wind. Could ride between waves just lightly pumping without using the wing. Technique/level went up, now could ride a 1800cm2 foil in same conditions.

Whats superior to kitesurfing :
You can ride weird winds and side-off is super easy. This gives you the added bonus of super clean waves.
You don't need a beach/ launching area. This with the various wind directions thats possible is huge. Ridable spots increased x2.
30+ knots wind. Its effortless and feels 100% safe even if super gusty.
Easier learning, quick progression, feels safer. Could never get my wife to keep kitesurfing...Now she actually WANTS to go windfoiling. Days riding, x2!

The same:
Gear setup, whatever everyone says, takes the exact same amount of time as kitesurfing. Yea you have lines in kitesurfing, but you have a bigger board and foil to carry around/setup winging.
Pumping is the same due to the larger bladders. Deflating takes longer.
With tube kites, low end is the same if you use 2000cm2+ wings and dont weight 100kg.

The negatives:
Its a pain to carry the gear long ways. So doesnt work for some spots were you park far away...
It can get VERY physical. I tire way faster than kitesurfing (2 hours, 3 hours? no problem), usually ride 30 minutes then take a break.
The boards still feel too thick and big...thats a hard one because if the wind drops, you dont want to sink when your 1 mile out.
Jumps feel...tiny coming from kites.
Good post - makes sense. I can see correct gear, as with learning kite foiling, will make a big difference in the learning curve. Big question: is winging worthwhile in lighter winds when there are no viable waves /swell to ride?

I have found that kite foiling has probably doubled or tripled my enjoyable time on the water this year. 12 - 14 knots happens quite a lot & is whole lot more interesting to foil in than to kite on a SB/TT. I can clearly see the advantages of winging in certain conditions ... as in this video I posted:



no way at all you would be able to do that with a kite. But I don't (locally) get anything that remotely resembles those conditions - beautiful smooth swell with very little wind. My question: is there any real point in winging in 12 - 14 (or even 14 - 18) knots when there is little or no swell/waves ... other than the "novelty" appeal (trying something different)?

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby juandesooka » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:52 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:05 pm
My question: is there any real point in winging in 12 - 14 (or even 14 - 18) knots when there is little or no swell/waves ... other than the "novelty" appeal (trying something different)?
Answer: depends on your alternatives. My experience so far is that winging is 10ts is "doable", on a big wing and big foil, just quite a bit of work for what you get, and frustrating when wind is just barely not enough. I have a full kite quiver up to 17m and a range of kite foils, so for me, I have found I can have more fun on the kite foils at that speed. But if I didn't kite, the wing was my only wind weapon, and I was frothing out on wind chasing like many do at the start (myself included), then DEFINITELY there would be a point in trying ... the sweet victory of squeezing out a session in marginal conditions! :-)

Yesterday saw 12kt wind at my local, kiters were on 12m kites, just slightly underpowered but making it work. I was tempted to try the wing, but it probably would have been iffy, maybe kinda almost, but probably not enough to get back upwind...needed just a couple knots more. Meanwhile it was shoulder high super fun surf foiling too, so I did that instead. I feel no remorse about not winging, but I probably should have kited, oh well. :roll: :thumb:

14-18kt on a 6m or 7m wing you can be fully powered, definitely worth it if you enjoy winging!

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Re: Winging is half-assed kite foiling - discuss

Postby slowboat » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:53 pm

Winging and kite foiling complement each other beautifully. It is so much fun to be able to enjoy both. I pick what I want to do based on location and conditions.


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