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Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

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Horst Sergio
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Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby Horst Sergio » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:15 pm

The following comes to you from the propaganda ministerium for mono foiling or as I say:
Buy just one, get twice the fun! :D
viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2393935

Image
Started winging 08/2019 unfortunately wasted a few tries using a stabi.

First I have to say, even with my low experience in windsurf foiling, also one try with a mono, which naturally has been the best 😉, I understand with the complex interaction of attached sail to board, that people prefer to use stabis in wind foiling, topic closed to me.
With kite foiling it is less clear, for sure there are quite many not riding to often and having already a hard job on a normal foil or to jibe it in flight. But on the other hand, there are also many good foilers whose skill and riding style would fit much better and profit from riding without stab, as I am sure. Maybe they just don’t do because they haven’t tried mono foiling long enough until it starts to feel as normal and stable as a stabi foil.
But there is something I really don’t understand, coming to wing foiling, talking about people coming with good skill from kite foiling as many if not most, looking at the statistic in the other topic:

Why could you prefer wing foiling with a stabi?

The main point here is the riding speed. Robby Naish and Kai Lenny both have made videos to show their reachable speeds hitting 40 and 49 km/h, which means: Hey, we wing foilers are not really fast not even the best of us. Those speeds are in the range of my mono foil top speeds of 42 km/h, done 2 years ago with different and no special designed mono wings.
Coming from speed to the biggest drawback of mono foiling: It is not so easy, isn’t it?
How easy a start into mono foiling is, is extremely influenced by wing size and so lift speed. If Kai Lenny, being of course a much better foiler, would try my freerace monofoil 580 cm² wing with a short board, I would bet he would not do a meter in a day. On the other hand the big foils we are using with wings are so easy that I promise, everybody who is able to do a flying jibe will be able to ride such a > 1500 cm² mono in the first minutes, at least what I experienced with kite mono + good riders + 1000 cm².
But about how easy it is I had one single doubt myself till some weeks ago and that’s why I haven’t started this topic earlier: For stupid reason I haven’t had a V strap on my board during the first year and have always done short surfacing for foot switch and so not being sure if it would be easy to do it with a V-strap on a mono in flight:
First day with V-strap, second foot switch successful, other side the next day. Both day bad low wind conditions on a 1100 cm² wing, no need to say how much easier on a 1500 cm². Compared to kite foiling where I even after 4 years don’t feel perfect with mono jibes switch and therefore most time do tacks: I was impressed myself that with a wing setup it is so much easier than with a kite setup, didn’t expect it to be so much easier and that was the point where I haven’t seen any relevant reason anymore to wing with a stabi.
kf-Kitejunkie-Wingfoil-Flaka.jpg
But maybe I missed something and anybody can help me:

1. When I ride a kite foil with a stabi, one time a year, I always have to remember to take ½-1 kite size bigger to compensate drag, which is not a to big problem having kites in any sizes. But when it comes to winging and its limited low end because size and AR of the wing is just limited by the room in between hands and water surface …
-> Why could you want to install something to your foil that adds drag, lowers lift at the same time, so reduces your low end, that can’t be compensated by a bigger wing?

2. When kiting I enjoyed to ride while sitting, which is very comfortable and the potential for many cool tricks, so losing the ability for this position on a mono foil is indeed a relevant draw back for the
kite foil mono.
-> But for the wing? Anybody thinks riding sitting with a wing has much potential or ever seen somebody doing a caneri man, a sitting tack or a sitting jump with a wing?

3. Jumping started to be one of the most important points for winging to me, which brings boards weight into the focus. Actually, I ride a less than 1000 € Alu-Inflatable setup with 72 l that weights 8,3 kg. A mono foil saves weight in many places: Stabi and fuselage for sure, but with the strut more centred reinforcement of board can be lower and there is no need of a grab handle as that’s where the strut comes close so just grab strut and many further small weight savers.
Additionally, a monofoil has an always constant pressure point, which means landings are much easier no matter if you land foil forward or in flight (not yet done but getting close).
-> Why could I want adding significant more weight at least at the worst position and make clean landings more difficult and more dangerous with 4 sharp wingtips instead of 2 rounded ones?

4. Many prefer riding wings in complete freedom without harness and gliding smallest waves.
-> Why would you want something,
- that increases the drag and therefore also the force you have to hold with your hands?
- that blocks your movement on a wave?
- that lowers your glide angle and therefore makes you catching less waves?
- that decreases your upwind angle?


Actually, I ordered a wing board, that is build close to a mono foil only usage, as track position is 3 cm more forward, the same I already did 2 years ago with a custom kite board. Haven’t been a bad idea till now.

At least the known suspects have already seen the same light, like I did :)
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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby slowboat » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:02 pm

Horst, you are leading on this again. I got comfortable kiting with my Delta monofoil but have not tried it winging yet because I don't think I can get it forward enough on the tracks of my current board. What board are you getting? How do you find pumping a mono while winging?

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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby bragnouff » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:10 pm

Cool! Makes me want to try that. I guess a first step before chopping a fuselage is to just not bolt the stab on? Since I have a tuttle box and a fixed position, what are the consequences? Would I be riding a few cms further forward on the deck? Or further backwards?

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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby slowboat » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:23 pm

bragnouff wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:10 pm
Cool! Makes me want to try that. I guess a first step before chopping a fuselage is to just not bolt the stab on? Since I have a tuttle box and a fixed position, what are the consequences? Would I be riding a few cms further forward on the deck? Or further backwards?
You stand further back. Basically, your weight takes over the function of the stab so it becomes all about the back leg.
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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:29 pm

I think many simply dont believe it can work, thus nobody except you and Øyvind doing it always.

Tbe guy riding with his wife, has also changed back to supershort fuselages with stabs as far as I know.

But the "adjustment" phase to stabless, and that hardly noone does it, puts people off beforehand, is my take.

Apart from this, which is pretty obvious, I have a couple of concers myself, that might be real, or not:

Pumping, as I use a supersmall stab when wingfoiling, to get a more lively board with these big wings we have to use.
And compared to when using a board with a bigger stab, it seems more difficult to pump?
Dont take this for much, as I havent had the chance to test many combinations...
But pumping is essential for wingfoil, does not really matter for kitefoil though.

The other is the "driving" feel - when I use a supersmall stab on a kitefoil, it is more lively, but it seems to lack more and more of its nice driving feel when carving, which every windsurfer and surfer knows.
Just like using twinzers on windsurfers or surfboards give you a (too) loose feel for the majority of riders, only very very few like.
And the opposite, a big single fin is too fixed, too driving, we want and use a compromise where it all fall into place :thumb:

Also, if so much less drag, and stability would not be much of an issue, why dont the best racers use this setup and kick ass?

I also have some baggage from gliding and RC gliding, where we often flew tailless gliders.
Very maneuverable and fun, but ANY glider with a longer fuselage and even the smallest stab, were performing so much better, a lot less overall drag also.

My level might also be too low, for me to gain from stabless :-?

But agree, wingfoil is much easier and slower than kitefoil, so for stabless even easier than kitefoil.

8) Peter
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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby tkaraszewski » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:20 pm

I have yet to see anyone ride one of these better than a normal foil with a stabilizer, regardless of what you consider “best”. Fastest? Highest jump? Best wave ride? All on normal foils.

Why would I ride a monofoil? More difficult with no obvious payoff.

This whole post reads like “why not ride a monofoil, it’s only a little bit worse than a regular foil”.

There’s nothing out there that sells these as desirable, so nobody rides them.
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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby slowboat » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:44 pm

tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:20 pm
I have yet to see anyone ride one of these better than a normal foil with a stabilizer, regardless of what you consider “best”. Fastest? Highest jump? Best wave ride? All on normal foils.

Why would I ride a monofoil? More difficult with no obvious payoff.

This whole post reads like “why not ride a monofoil, it’s only a little bit worse than a regular foil”.

There’s nothing out there that sells these as desirable, so nobody rides them.
The skepticism is fair but in my opinion it is not about measurable performance, it is about the FEEL of riding something with so little drag that is appealing.

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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby foilfun » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:24 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:29 pm
I think many simply dont believe it can work, thus nobody except you and Øyvind doing it always.

Tbe guy riding with his wife, has also changed back to supershort fuselages with stabs as far as I know.

8) Peter
Nope, I haven't stopped. I still love my mono. Winged my mono today. But I also used a stubby later. The mono glides much better, goes upwind better, gets on foil sooner, pulls less on the arms, deals with weeds better, but it was much harder to pump and was more sensitive to cross chop. There's always a little tradeoff. Mono is about the feeling, like foiling generally, but more. Whether I ride mono or stubby depends on the conditions.

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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby fluidity » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:24 am

Horst,
I'm a foiling newbie, tackling foil design at the same time as I'm learning. Heavy, so I had to build a huge foil to be able to learn in sane wind conditions.
At the moment I'm at the stage where muscle memory is just starting to kick in.
I'm a bit skeptical about all the foil manufacturers doing their own thing with no intercompatibility except for 2 brands someone told me about so I started an open-fuse design. Interesting relevence is that the section from the mast to the tail isn't part of the main fuselage in my design, I use a connection rod because my theory is that the loadings between the mast and front wing are massively greater. In my prototyping I'm using a 12mm diameter pultruded glass fibre rod which has a small amount of flex in it. Going slowly I have some stability but as I increase speed the flex seems more noticeable(=me falling off). I'm now thinking I should remove the rod and see how much control I have with just the front wing, like you say, it's extra drag. I also have a titanium rod in transit which would make it MORE stable. I have a theory though, that a small amount of flex in a fuselage should IMPROVE pumping performance, it should store and release energy instead of transferring the rider's back foot control energy into the water.
I'm curious, can you describe the feeling of stability change with speed on the big foils used with wingsurfing?
Do you feel a noticable stability unifoiling with a low aspect wing vs high aspect?
How do you feel about unifoiling with a long (learner's)board? is it still achievable?
And some wings have down turned trailing edges, to me that would seem to be the worst sort of wing to use without a fuselage, have you experimented enough with different wing profiles to have developed a favorite profile?

And back to speed records... someone recently posted an interview with a foiling yacht speed record holder, there was some discussion of a "fence" on the foil reducing high speed drag, my feeling though it wasn't stated very openly, is that they designed for upper surface deliberate air entrapment to reduce upper surface wetted area. I suspect on a monofoil the air entrapment transitions would make for rather sketchy control but in a good design the entrapment could be made smoothly progressive over the surface to reduce shock load changes in drag.
I will note that compared to regular foiling with stabiliser wings I can see you making lots of rapid corrections, it looks more like riding a unicycle and reminds me of my own foil learning with the bendy rod to the stabiliser, wobbly ! But also the ability to be very reactively dynamic.
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Re: Why a stabi, when wing foiling?

Postby Okkiteboarder » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:11 am

tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:20 pm
I have yet to see anyone ride one of these better than a normal foil with a stabilizer, regardless of what you consider “best”. Fastest? Highest jump? Best wave ride? All on normal foils.

Why would I ride a monofoil? More difficult with no obvious payoff.

This whole post reads like “why not ride a monofoil, it’s only a little bit worse than a regular foil”.

There’s nothing out there that sells these as desirable, so nobody rides them.
Tyler, I can attest by observation of many hours riding with foilfun. Even though I’m winging on a traditional setup because I’m “scared” of the lack of pitch control in foot switch transitions while winging. He has much superior upwind angles, more playfulness, and better glide. Not to mention in areas with weeds (turtle grass, seaweed, etc)...it sheds these nuisances. There are obvious pluses and minuses and fits some higher level foil rider styles very well. It doesn’t aid you, or fit my style, but I’ve seen the advantages and fruit of a commited wingfoil mono rider.


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