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New Wings vs First Generation

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grtlakes
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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby grtlakes » Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:46 pm

Interesting comments. Thanks. I look forward to the direction this is going.

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby gription » Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:33 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:10 am
There will be huge changes coming. Especially with construction and materials.

At the moment there are huge differences between the brands in regards to performance and durability of the wings.

What I find interesting is that some gen 1 wings are actually performing better than most Gen 2 or 3 wings. For example the current Takoon still blows my mind in regards to speed and power. Can#t wait to see what they come up with next.

Also brands are starting to move away from the kite construction towards sail materials. For example Starboards and XT-Kauper have wings out of laminate materials.

It is going to be very interesting in the near future.

--
Gunnar
Would love to see some pics of what is being developed in this space. It seems like the materials used to make code zeros would fit really nicely on the wing platform. A molded 3di type wing would probably be pretty fast, though durability would be a concern

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:13 pm

It will be really interesting indeed :thumb:

I know it might sound opposite to what most expect, but for some reason, my gut feel is, that the wings are a lot more matured than we would normally expect from a totally new sport.

Compared to say kitesurfing (or windsurfing) where the first years was game changers every year or two :rollgrin:

Which could also explain why some brands seem a lot more in front, with their first generation, and others are not really progressing with their second or third generation.

I would love to be surprised, just my gut feeling as said :-?

8) Peter

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby windmaker » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:21 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:13 pm
It will be really interesting indeed :thumb:

I know it might sound opposite to what most expect, but for some reason, my gut feel is, that the wings are a lot more matured than we would normally expect from a totally new sport.

Compared to say kitesurfing (or windsurfing) where the first years was game changers every year or two :rollgrin:

Which could also explain why some brands seem a lot more in front, with their first generation, and others are not really progressing with their second or third generation.

I would love to be surprised, just my gut feeling as said :-?

8) Peter
Agreed, wings have benefited from materials and technology developed by windsurfing and kitesurfing and therefore are more finalized than some would think.

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby windmaker » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:28 am

gription wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:33 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:10 am
There will be huge changes coming. Especially with construction and materials.

At the moment there are huge differences between the brands in regards to performance and durability of the wings.

What I find interesting is that some gen 1 wings are actually performing better than most Gen 2 or 3 wings. For example the current Takoon still blows my mind in regards to speed and power. Can#t wait to see what they come up with next.

Also brands are starting to move away from the kite construction towards sail materials. For example Starboards and XT-Kauper have wings out of laminate materials.

It is going to be very interesting in the near future.

--
Gunnar
Would love to see some pics of what is being developed in this space. It seems like the materials used to make code zeros would fit really nicely on the wing platform. A molded 3di type wing would probably be pretty fast, though durability would be a concern
As a sailmaker i am familiar with code zeros but at 60gr per m2 they are nearly twice the weight of polyester ripstop currently used on wings, it does not like being folded and UV resistance is poor.

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby longwhitecloud » Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:22 am

Accounts: we need more sales/profit

Managers: we need a point of difference in this narrow market and more products

Marketers: make it look more high tech .. booms attachments, laminated materials

Engineers: isnt the idea to kerp things as light as possible while sraying robust without the chance of injury ( eg breaking bones on booms)

Manager to engineeering design: do you want this job or not?

Marketers/ shops/ influencers: The most rigid efficient wing foil on the market with direct feel from a fully composite boom. Simply a game changer.

Engineers: wtf?

Public: ok so what i want is a heavier wing, with a boom ( additional cost), that is heavier to transport and takes up more volume while travelling. Also people gettiing winging can damage themselves on the boom as well as the hydro foil now!..

Ahh! Sanes magagers. Kite foil safety equipment sales!

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby fluidity » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:23 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:22 am

Marketers/ shops/ influencers: The most rigid efficient wing foil on the market with direct feel from a fully composite boom. Simply a game changer.

Public: ok so what i want is a heavier wing, with a boom ( additional cost), that is heavier to transport and takes up more volume while travelling. Also people gettiing winging can damage themselves on the boom as well as the hydro foil now!..
That's exactly the line the local distributor is taking. While talking down every other brand to try and put himself on a pedestal.

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby bigtone667 » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:50 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:22 am
Accounts: we need more sales/profit

Managers: we need a point of difference in this narrow market and more products

Marketers: make it look more high tech .. booms attachments, laminated materials

Engineers: isnt the idea to kerp things as light as possible while sraying robust without the chance of injury ( eg breaking bones on booms)

Manager to engineeering design: do you want this job or not?

Marketers/ shops/ influencers: The most rigid efficient wing foil on the market with direct feel from a fully composite boom. Simply a game changer.

Engineers: wtf?

Public: ok so what i want is a heavier wing, with a boom ( additional cost), that is heavier to transport and takes up more volume while travelling. Also people gettiing winging can damage themselves on the boom as well as the hydro foil now!..

Ahh! Sanes magagers. Kite foil safety equipment sales!
Pretty hard to create a point of difference when duotone and naish introduce the product at essentially the same time.

And I think the wing weight is mostly irrelevant once you get over 20 knots.

Pretty sure the duotone is one of the few wings you can shape the wing.

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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby fluidity » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:11 am

bigtone667 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:24 pm
I think the bigger brands have learned a heap from their V1's and you see it in the new models.

If we use Naish as an example .... They only had a 4m wing and you needed 20 knots if you were a big boned individual .... V2 they had about 6 wings that were better with a much broader wind range ... they must be close to a V3.

If we use Duotone as an example ... They had three wings using a boom that flopped about when handled with one hand but they were grunty little beasts ... V2 of the boom model was a vast improvement in handling and they increased the number of sizes. They also introduced a pump up strut model.... They are about to bring the V3 Slick (the vulcan mind meld of boom and pump up strut!!)

If we use Gong as an example ... Not sure there was ever a V1 ... but they are evolving the product every few months.
Naish's V2 5.3m(my first wing), I'm 105KG and it's been a struggle to learn on it without the wind nuking. It doesn't have a lot of thickness to it but I got an Ensis 6M a couple of weeks ago and the difference is massive. Only .7m difference in area but the Ensis will get me going (now I can pump) when the wave tips are just curling over on themselves- sub 11 knots? and I can wing through areas with only a bit of a ripple on the water rarely needing to pump the foil. When it get past about 16 knots though, Gusting to past 30, the Ensis is a mission to control and it's a big relief to change down to the Naish which has much better depower and way less thickness and maximum power anyway. However, I suspect I'd get as much or more power and the fun of a little wing if I were to swap out my Naish 5.3m for an Ensis 3.5m

I think the V3 Duotone looks ugly but they will still be popular with the windsurfers who wanted an easy swap over. At least they can ditch a bit of the boom weight. I think it's a better selection choice not to get hard boom models though. Many of the brands have switched to long handles and in my opinion it's a winning choice. Less weight than a hard boom and easy to grab and to readjust grip position in a fraction of a second, the boom is the equivalent of trainer wheels with the addition of another hard thing to potentially cause injury to the board or self.

Gong has been getting bad press on popping leading edges. Maybe it's because they do the biggest wings? Maybe it's materials, maybe it's incorectly labelled pump pressures or people pumping them more than the recommended pressure to get a bit more stiffness... But end result is that Gong have now added the Ulman brand Osprey model wing to their range.

1'st generation were all selling to a naive market, all first timers. Most newbies aren't focussed on pumping up on foil on low winds so manufacturers of first generation wings could get away with floppy wings that flap like birds when pumped. All the good wings now have tensioned canopys which requires design of the leading edge tubing to try to open further than the rest of the wing fabric will permit. Also, the leading edges need to have curves built in to set the thickness curve under tension. These are subtleties that take time to figure out, we see the results in tha Takoon, the Smik, The PPC, the Ensis, Armstrong and various others. I'm sure Robbie Naish will be making changes for his V3 wing.

Personally, I think it's better to have a long chord wing with short wing span, it's better to have a powerful small wing than a big wing of the same power.

I think the next big revolution for wings will be Alula leading edges. In kites they are great for drifting but if you are drifting a kite you are probably going to be thinking about winging. For people doing freestyle kiting, I suspect a leading edge with some weight is better to provide some carry through, for winging it's going to really be the best application in my opinion.
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Re: New Wings vs First Generation

Postby gmb13 » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:55 am

gription wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:33 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:10 am
There will be huge changes coming. Especially with construction and materials.

At the moment there are huge differences between the brands in regards to performance and durability of the wings.

What I find interesting is that some gen 1 wings are actually performing better than most Gen 2 or 3 wings. For example the current Takoon still blows my mind in regards to speed and power. Can#t wait to see what they come up with next.

Also brands are starting to move away from the kite construction towards sail materials. For example Starboards and XT-Kauper have wings out of laminate materials.

It is going to be very interesting in the near future.

--
Gunnar
Would love to see some pics of what is being developed in this space. It seems like the materials used to make code zeros would fit really nicely on the wing platform. A molded 3di type wing would probably be pretty fast, though durability would be a concern
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