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blackswan
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gear buying advice

Postby blackswan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:06 pm

Hi,

I am a pretty proficient foiler (kite + efoil) looking to get into winging. I want to wing when it is <20kt (or offshore/poor conditions for kite), and I mainly want to use the wing to tow myself into surfing waves/swell.

I weigh 70kg, planning on the following setup:

fanatic 5'4 (95L), lift 250HA/v2 foil, and probably a large (6m+?) wing.

So I have a few questions for you experienced folks -

* is a 5'4 board too big to surf waves/swell with, and should I go through the hassle of learning to sink start right away? I am confident I will pick it up quickly, but given I want to wing in mostly light wind I think big board is probably best
* what would the wind range be with a ~6m wing for this setup? I suspect it's around 13-15kt on the low end but want second opinion
* which wing would you recommend given my planned use? Was looking at the '21 cab mantis 6.2 but it doesn't seem to be available yet

Appreciate the advice!
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StellaBlu (Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:39 pm)
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slingshotucf
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Re: gear buying advice

Postby slingshotucf » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm

Go with the 95 liter board or bigger and the 6.2 mantis when it comes out. You might want to look into a bigger board that you can sup foil as well because it's a blast to sup waves when the wind dies. For a board, just don't go over 6'6 or you'll start to get a lot of negative feedback against the lift of the foil.
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StellaBlu
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Re: gear buying advice

Postby StellaBlu » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:38 pm

You literally described me. Same experience, similar weight (77 kg), etc...

After a lot of deliberation I got the following setup:
- Quatro Wing Drifter 5'8" - Considered the 5'6", but the difference was minimal and I want to maximize my days on the water even if lighter wind (15 kts). If I was only winging 20kts+ I would have sized down.
- Lift 250 HA (I think v1 and v2 are the same) + 50 stab (because I already have it for kiting, but might experiment with smaller) - I might have gone with the v2 surf wing if it had been released. Slightly concerned that people have told me the 250HA is very advanced.
- Cab Mantis 6

Considered the Fanatic, but people steered me away from it. I recall it was a bit heavy. Regarding volume, I figure I will just go with a big board to start -- accelerating the learning curve. By the time Im getting into waves of any significance I will probably get a second lower volume board. The big board will eventually become a light wind board.

The board and wing came recommended from Mac (Tucker) and confirmed with others.

I haven't used this setup yet (still waiting on the wing), but will report back when I finally do. I was told that the Mantis 6 is shipping this week.
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blackswan (Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:06 pm)
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blackswan
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Re: gear buying advice

Postby blackswan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:59 pm

Thanks guys, I was also looking at the Quatro boards. Where did you order the Mantis 6 from? My local shop only has up to 5m. When I called the local shop they claimed that a 5m wing would even work in ~12kt of wind (which is basically the low end of what I want), but I am a little skeptical of that :)

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Re: gear buying advice

Postby fluidity » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:43 am

blackswan wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:59 pm
Thanks guys, I was also looking at the Quatro boards. Where did you order the Mantis 6 from? My local shop only has up to 5m. When I called the local shop they claimed that a 5m wing would even work in ~12kt of wind (which is basically the low end of what I want), but I am a little skeptical of that :)
I'm 6 foot, a bit fat, unfit and I can get going on a 2600 sqcm foil when wave tips are just curling over now i have some months experience. It's more important to have a wing with powerful thick profile than it is to have a huge wing. 6m is big for your weight. Get something like a 5 or 4.5 and you will have more clearance around the wing tips to pump it. At 6 foot I still find my 6m Ensis a bit bulky but it pumps well. Consider that as your technique develops you will provide a significant portion of the starting power and then the apparent wind will kick in and your effort will drop. But just starting, that's all really difficult, it takes a bit for the muscle memory to kick in and to coordinate swinging the wing and body centre of gravity effectively while the board is moving.

Also a key consideration is that as your skill level improves and you move down to smaller, faster foils, you can do the same with the wings. Bigger is not always faster, wings have drag too.

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Re: gear buying advice

Postby davesails7 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:37 pm

blackswan wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:59 pm
Thanks guys, I was also looking at the Quatro boards. Where did you order the Mantis 6 from? My local shop only has up to 5m. When I called the local shop they claimed that a 5m wing would even work in ~12kt of wind (which is basically the low end of what I want), but I am a little skeptical of that :)
Eventually you can get foiling in 12 knots on a 5m. Your low end improves very quickly as you learn.

I'm 2 months into winging, 7 sessions. At first I was trying to go out when the wind was too light.

I'm 80 kg, 110L board, 6m wing, 1720sqcm foil. At first I needed around 18-19 knots to get foiling with the 6m wing. Now I only need 13-14 knots for the 6m wing. From what I've heard, the low end will keep improving.

Overall, I was glad I went with the 6m to start. It is a bit harder to manage on the water, but it opened up a lot more days for learning.

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Re: gear buying advice

Postby Jyoder » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:38 pm

2-3 hours on flat water, 5 knots wind, learning to balance and fly wing.
5 hours over 3 sessions in 10-20knot wind fairy flat water, learning to pump to get on foil, managing power.

I can now gybe to toe side and switch feet both ways, carve swell with wing “off”, and rocket upwind in race stance.

Compared to kitefoiling, winging is easy! the large foil is so stable and you can dance around on the board and recover bad foot placement in slow motion.

DIY 100 L 5.5ft x 32in x 4 inch board. 2000cm2 infinity 84 foil on 30in mast, 7m echo, and borrowed a friends 5m wasp for the 15-20knot session.

Big 7m wing provides so much stability, like an anchor in the sky, just like a big kite. I’m 6ft2in tall, 75kg so hardly any worries about dragging a wingtip once you learn the technique.

Great session in 8-14 knots yesterday, comfortably powered but had to pump to start.
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Re: gear buying advice

Postby Jyoder » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:46 pm

I cannot stress enough how helpful it was to learn to balance, fly the wing, and displacement sail upwind/downwind and gybe on flat water in 5 knots to build fundamentals before progressing to foilable winds. This requires a big board that floats you, wide and stable.

I see people trying to learn on small boards in high winds and choppy water with minimal success.

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Re: gear buying advice

Postby elguapo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:20 pm

blackswan wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:06 pm
Hi,

I am a pretty proficient foiler (kite + efoil) looking to get into winging. I want to wing when it is <20kt (or offshore/poor conditions for kite), and I mainly want to use the wing to tow myself into surfing waves/swell.

I weigh 70kg, planning on the following setup:

fanatic 5'4 (95L), lift 250HA/v2 foil, and probably a large (6m+?) wing.

So I have a few questions for you experienced folks -

* is a 5'4 board too big to surf waves/swell with, and should I go through the hassle of learning to sink start right away? I am confident I will pick it up quickly, but given I want to wing in mostly light wind I think big board is probably best
* what would the wind range be with a ~6m wing for this setup? I suspect it's around 13-15kt on the low end but want second opinion
* which wing would you recommend given my planned use? Was looking at the '21 cab mantis 6.2 but it doesn't seem to be available yet

Appreciate the advice!
i'm about 10-12 kg heavier.. i foil on kites, paddle SUP with foil, pump a surfboard with foil and just started efoiling also..
i've wing foiled with the exact same setup (lift v2 foil).. but a smaller wing thing (4m) and i only see a use in only higher winds (20-25+ knots)
i've been using the a 5'0 fanatic sky wing(75L)..which i honestly feels is still too big. (there is a 55L 4'8 version that i've yet to see in the wild)
this "boogie board knee" method worka well for board volumes of less that recommended 1L/Kg of bodyweight...at least to me.



imo, if you can sit on a board above the water.. you should be able to surf it.
with sufficient wind.. the wing thing(plus pumping) will provide the energy to get you on foil.

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Re: gear buying advice

Postby StellaBlu » Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:49 pm

StellaBlu wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:38 pm
You literally described me. Same experience, similar weight (77 kg), etc...

After a lot of deliberation I got the following setup:
- Quatro Wing Drifter 5'8" - Considered the 5'6", but the difference was minimal and I want to maximize my days on the water even if lighter wind (15 kts). If I was only winging 20kts+ I would have sized down.
- Lift 250 HA (I think v1 and v2 are the same) + 50 stab (because I already have it for kiting, but might experiment with smaller) - I might have gone with the v2 surf wing if it had been released. Slightly concerned that people have told me the 250HA is very advanced.
- Cab Mantis 6

Considered the Fanatic, but people steered me away from it. I recall it was a bit heavy. Regarding volume, I figure I will just go with a big board to start -- accelerating the learning curve. By the time Im getting into waves of any significance I will probably get a second lower volume board. The big board will eventually become a light wind board.

The board and wing came recommended from Mac (Tucker) and confirmed with others.

I haven't used this setup yet (still waiting on the wing), but will report back when I finally do. I was told that the Mantis 6 is shipping this week.
Ive now used this setup several times and am really liking it. I could have probably gone to 100-105 liters on the board without sacrificing too much, but the board also doesn't feel overly cumbersome at this size. Super easy to get going from knees to feet.

I was concerned after hearing that the Lift HA setup was "advanced" and while I don't have a lot to compare it to, I found it to be pretty stable. Im working on pumping, but it feels like I can generate power with this setup. My only concern would be that there is too much lift if the speed picks up, but there is so much space on the board, I can always adjust position slightly to keep the wing from breaching. I get the sense that there is a speed limit on a wing this size and at some speed you might need to downsize surface area -- but I won't be there for a while. I did notice some quirkiness when turning -- It felt more susceptible to popping up on the side I was falling towards, which is kind of scary. Definitely not as turny as the v1 surf 170 Im used to on the kite, but a lot more glide. I would be curious to try some of the smaller tails to see how much this loosens the turning and how much you lose in stability.

Again, not a lot to compare to, but these Mantis wings seem to be very straightforward and easy to use. The mini boom handles are great and very easy to micro adjust placement. I find that even a small movement (particularly on the front hand) changes the power and characteristic a lot, so I can't really imagine having handles which would require much larger movement. The bag is junk, which is annoying (too small and really basic in construction). I also tore one of the wings on its maiden voyage, but probably more to do with operator error than anything else.

I got my wings from AdventureSportsUSA, who was the only dealer who had them in stock (they are related to Cabrinha). They were SUPER to deal with and gave me a discount and sent me some extras.

On this setup I was on foil in my second session and doing inconsistent jibes on my third. I was able to pump onto foil on a 13knot day with the 6m wing (and some tide helping me). Not sure I would have done anything differently in terms of gear. Im very happy with the setup and stoked on winging. Get set up and have fun.


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