Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Forum for wing surfers
User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 10697
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon May 24, 2021 11:34 pm

Hi - doing both for quite some time now, and noticed a few things, would like to hear other opinions:

When sufficient wind, wingfoil is extremely fun, and you can also ride even the smallest wind swell, actually even small chop waves a bit :thumb:

But when wind drops lower than a certain point, you are stuck, totally - yes you can pump yourself up to some extent, but there is a limit where you cant do nothing, and getting ashore now is a PITA :wink:
A bit like windsurfing, where you can not get on a plane - just worse, as with windsurfing you can still, even on small boards, practice tacks and helicopter tacks (a bit boring, but not as much as wingfoil when not foiling) :wink:

Of course you can ride a bit lower with a kitefoil, even with a small kite, but that is not the issue.

The frustration is, that with a kitefoil you can foil even when wind is too light, quite some, and even if too light for that, you can loop yourself to shore really fast.

My point is, that if winds get a tad too low when out, wingfoil is a :angryfire: compared to kitefoil.

simply an observation, as wingfoil is totally addictive and fun - but it has this really annoying limit IMO, a bit like windsurfing.

8) Peter

Dave K
Frequent Poster
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:49 pm
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: Outer Banks
Style: Knee friendly kite foil and wing foil
Gear: 10 m Airush Ultra / 7M Switch Helium, 5M RRD Passion, Moses 633/483/72cm/82cm, 120cm Groove Skate. Duotone Echo 6/5/4/3.3m wing-a-dings, SurfMachine 5’1” 90l wing board, Gong Veloce XL/XXL
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby Dave K » Mon May 24, 2021 11:58 pm

I’ve had several times when I was out kitefoiling with my 10m Airush Ultra where I was fine as long as I kept the kite airborne and did a lot of looping to keep my self going. The second I dropped it in the water it was game over,....until I got a strong enough puff to relaunch it.

Sure, I have a lower wind limit with kitefoiling versus wing foiling, but not by a huge amount (at least with my Ultra),....and both disciplines kinda suck when the wind dies on you while you out there.

This video clip is what I’d consider my (average rider) wing foiling low wind limit using a 6m hand wing (I recently replaced my 6m Echo with a 6m Slick) and a Gong Veloce XXL (1900 sq cm). I certainly wouldn’t call it an absolute minimum to wing foil, but a minimum to foil and still have some some kind of fun......


juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1127
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Style: Canada's Kai Lenny (in my mind)
Gear: Ocean Rodeo / Spitfire Foil / GoFoil / Ozone wings
Brand Affiliation: Open to offers
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby juandesooka » Tue May 25, 2021 12:45 am

Light wind anything kinda sucks. ;-)
I think kiting buys me a few knots of fun at the really low end, like with my 17m. But how many times have I had to swim it in when 7kts becomes 6? At least with winging I can slog back in, no fuss (as long as board is big enough to stand on).
At 10kt, I can just barely get up winging, but not much fun as it's so tentative, just trying to stay up, afraid to drop in a turn as you may not get back up. Endless pumping....and that's exhausting.
At that wind speed I can be going fast with my 12m kitefoil and ripping hard turns. So I am not selling off my kite gear at this point, even though I am barely using it. Well, I sold my 5m kite, not planning to do any more 40kt+ kiting.

User avatar
bragnouff
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: New Brighton
Gear: Alkita boards
Zeeko Slash/AirWave/Scrambler
Spitfire XLW/ XXLW. GoFoil Kai/Iwa
GK Trix
FS Peak4
HB Legion
Ypsilon
...
Brand Affiliation: GK enthusiast
Location: Te Wai Pounamu
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 125 times
Contact:

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby bragnouff » Tue May 25, 2021 1:40 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 11:34 pm
(...)
My point is, that if winds get a tad too low when out, wingfoil is a :angryfire: compared to kitefoil.
This is true if wind just drops a little bit... But if it drops completely, then it turns to a real nightmare on the kite while you would sit on your board and wait peacefully for the next puff to come. So it kind of depends on your spot and conditions.
In my typical seabreeze, if it gets lighter, then it's a slow process, and with a kite, you'd be able to keep riding for quite a while until it requires too much effort to get on the foil. But you can still make it safely back to the shore with kite in the air (at least with a Peak). On the other hand, on some mountain lakes, the wind can be puffy and shifty, and on some days, you could be waiting a few minutes before wind comes in again. On that spot, kiting is quite stressful, the launch is a bit sketchy, need an assistant, and be aware of a wind shadow from small headland. Anyway, once your kite is up, you ride full-on till you stop after having gestured someone to secure a landing. Wingfoilers and windsurfers can have a wee rest here and there, wait on the side of the lake for a bit, watching your friends, taking pictures, wait for a gust to pass or whatever,... it's definitely low stress.

juandesooka wrote: I sold my 5m kite, not planning to do any more 40kt+ kiting.
Is wingfoiling really replacing kiting in high winds? I enjoy a wing in a golden range of say 12-28kts, but when it's any stronger, even if I have a 3m wing, then I find the foil to be a bit overkill, unnecessary, and with limited advantages, compared to a surfboard (upwind ability is the only one I can think of...). And with many disadvantages, weight, depth, and the inherent danger of the foil tomahawking on you or your gear after a fall. And ocean side, 30kts+ days tend to bring big messy conditions that I can not imagine tackling with a wingfoil. But a 5m (or 4m) kite with surfboard is the absolute king of the hill in those conditions.

bigtone667
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:24 am
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Birdie Beach, Budgewoi Beach, Lakes Beach
Favorite Beaches: Umina Beach, Birdies Beach, Lake Munmorah, Canton, The Swamp, Le Morne
Style: surf, foiling, jumping, lawn mowing
Gear: Kites: BRM Cloud D's, Duotone Rebels
Wings: Cloud W1 2,3,4,5,6m, Duotone 7m
Boards: Naish Monarch, Naish Hover 155/110/130 Fanatic Sky Wing 5'8" & 5'4"
Foils: AXIS 1300/1150/1020 Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby bigtone667 » Tue May 25, 2021 5:05 am

juandesooka wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 12:45 am
Light wind anything kinda sucks. ;-)
I think kiting buys me a few knots of fun at the really low end, like with my 17m. But how many times have I had to swim it in when 7kts becomes 6? At least with winging I can slog back in, no fuss (as long as board is big enough to stand on).
At 10kt, I can just barely get up winging, but not much fun as it's so tentative, just trying to stay up, afraid to drop in a turn as you may not get back up. Endless pumping....and that's exhausting.
At that wind speed I can be going fast with my 12m kitefoil and ripping hard turns. So I am not selling off my kite gear at this point, even though I am barely using it. Well, I sold my 5m kite, not planning to do any more 40kt+ kiting.
I have had two swims in the past few weeks ..... :-)
These users thanked the author bigtone667 for the post:
juandesooka (Tue May 25, 2021 7:07 am)
Rating: 6.67%

juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1127
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Style: Canada's Kai Lenny (in my mind)
Gear: Ocean Rodeo / Spitfire Foil / GoFoil / Ozone wings
Brand Affiliation: Open to offers
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby juandesooka » Tue May 25, 2021 7:06 am

bragnouff wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 1:40 am
juandesooka wrote: I sold my 5m kite, not planning to do any more 40kt+ kiting.
Is wingfoiling really replacing kiting in high winds? I enjoy a wing in a golden range of say 12-28kts, but when it's any stronger, even if I have a 3m wing, then I find the foil to be a bit overkill, unnecessary, and with limited advantages, compared to a surfboard (upwind ability is the only one I can think of...). And with many disadvantages, weight, depth, and the inherent danger of the foil tomahawking on you or your gear after a fall. And ocean side, 30kts+ days tend to bring big messy conditions that I can not imagine tackling with a wingfoil. But a 5m (or 4m) kite with surfboard is the absolute king of the hill in those conditions.
I originally thought winging was about light wind. Turns out high wind has been the happy surprise. When it's cranking is when the wind swells get really good. But the other part...I've never been fully comfortable in 39 plus kiting. I go out but always worried...the line between manageable and truly dangerous being right there. Winging...no danger. Just let go and paddle in worst case scenario.

I have had my 4m to 40 and a buddy's 3m to 45. Pretty rad how at that wind your body becomes a wing...let the wing luff and you race downwind so fast half out of control, until you figure out how to turn. :-)
These users thanked the author juandesooka for the post:
Eltreato (Fri May 28, 2021 12:02 am)
Rating: 6.67%

OzBungy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2492
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:35 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 131 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby OzBungy » Tue May 25, 2021 7:50 am

I was thinking exactly that. Possibly a third of my wing sessions have been spoiled in one way or another because the wind dropped out.

The fundamental problem is that wing foiling relies on the efficiency of the foil. We have very little wing power to play with so the slightest drop in the wind crosses the line from powered riding to ... nothing.

To an extent I've learned to deal with this through using bigger and bigger foils, working on my pumping technique, riding with big wings, and learning to enjoy the lulls. It's quite pleasant to just sit and wait for some more wind. Usually it comes back enough.

Paddling in the right conditions is a wonderful workout. Paddling in the wrong conditions is gruelling, tedious and a bit scary. It really annoys me that wing foiling is marketed on the safety of "just paddle in". Clearly these people are either young, fit water athletes, or they've never actually paddled anything for very far. I can't imagine any of the fat old farts (or the few women) at my local spots paddling in.

I hear about the vulnerability of kite foiling to the wind dropping off. That has not been my experience. With a kite we've got huge amounts of power to spare. With all that power and apparent wind it is easy to foil through lulls. I have not experienced a self-rescue with a kite for ages. Even when I have had to self-rescue, sitting on the kite and sailing it in has been quite fun.

On the other hand, we've had cross-offshore conditions the last couple of days. It's been easier enough to ride with the wingfoiling kit and just paddle in through the turbulence near the beach. It felt a bit odd today struggling to get going with a 2.8m wing when the 35 knot winds dropped down to 20 knots.

joekitetime
Frequent Poster
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:58 pm
Local Beach: Sherman
Style: surf, foil, wake, plywood
Gear: wainman, slingshot, homegrown
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby joekitetime » Tue May 25, 2021 3:56 pm

Hi Peter-

You are making a good point, sorta. I've found I can wing down to 10mph on a big foil and 5m wing. But I've also ordered the new f-one CWC 6m plus hoping for the others. When the wind is that low, I ride my same wingboard but put up a peak4 kite and have ample power, even too much, on a 8m, or lightly powered on a 5m peak4.

It is no surprise that the complaint many of us surfers have with kites and foils is that you are always overpowered and can't slow down enough to really ride in the swell and surf, and when you do you are moving so slowly that your kite drops out of the sky. That is where the wing is awesome and comes in. You can slow down and ride the swell, even set the wing aside and surf foil the swell. The wing is like a 1/2 kite of sorts - you are effectively giving up power from the kite and using the power of the swell and lift of a larger foil instead of the kite.

So, it should come as no surprise that the wing, being less powerful by nature, has less of a low end than the kite. You can of course compensate for this with either a larger foil, or a larger swell to get the power, but the power has to come from somewhere (or of course the 3rd power source is simply pumping the foil like a gorilla).

Winging does in fact excel in stronger winds, but when the wind gets under 12, for sure under 10, I grab for more power from my peak4 kites and forget about gorilla pumping. If my arms get any bigger I'll need to buy larger wetsuits.

Joe

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 10697
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 25, 2021 8:59 pm

When below 12 knots, nothing is happening in wingfoil.

Yes with wings 6-7-8-9 m2 and foilwings over 2000 cm2, it is possible.

But apart from learning, the big wings over 6 m2 are "fading" away now, and most want faster foilwings, and at least higher aspect for more glide, and smaller for more speed, so the wave does not overtake you.

When wind is below 12 knots, a 5 m2 Peak4 works magic, and when around and below 10 knots, a 6 m2 Peak4 is great and at its sweetspot.

Doesnt matter if the wind drops - the kites does not, and usually you can ride ashore foiling, instead of the boring (and in chop a bit tiresome) "sit on the board with your wing held high drifting slowly ashore".

That was my point, that now where wings and wingfoilwings has evolved, low end hasnt really moved, well just opposite, it has moved a bit up instead - for more fun and speed on the wave.

We have all kinds of wind here in Denmark, pressure systems passing by, seabreezes, channel wind effects, ground and coastal wind effects, and hundreds of spots in the near vicinity where I live.
But when too little wind, everybody is just PARKED on a wingfoil :wink:

In the honeymoon phase you just wanna wing whenever possible, and go out when wind is on the edge, telling yourself "it is good practice" (which it is when learning, so correct actually).
But later, these conditions are so annoying, being parked most of the time, hoping for a puff so you can pump yourself onto foil and get going :cry:

There are some who only wingfoil, they are often frustrated as they try and try and try, with no success, even when good riders, if wind is on the limit.

So having a kitefoil for fun or waves in the 9-12 knots is simply awesome IMO, and a perfect complement to wingfoil, IMO :thumb:

8) Peter
These users thanked the author Peter_Frank for the post (total 2):
juandesooka (Wed May 26, 2021 12:01 am) • Eltreato (Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:21 pm)
Rating: 13.33%

bigtone667
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:24 am
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Birdie Beach, Budgewoi Beach, Lakes Beach
Favorite Beaches: Umina Beach, Birdies Beach, Lake Munmorah, Canton, The Swamp, Le Morne
Style: surf, foiling, jumping, lawn mowing
Gear: Kites: BRM Cloud D's, Duotone Rebels
Wings: Cloud W1 2,3,4,5,6m, Duotone 7m
Boards: Naish Monarch, Naish Hover 155/110/130 Fanatic Sky Wing 5'8" & 5'4"
Foils: AXIS 1300/1150/1020 Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Wingfoil versus Kitefoil?

Postby bigtone667 » Wed May 26, 2021 2:12 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:59 pm
When below 12 knots, nothing is happening in wingfoil.

Yes with wings 6-7-8-9 m2 and foilwings over 2000 cm2, it is possible.

But apart from learning, the big wings over 6 m2 are "fading" away now, and most want faster foilwings, and at least higher aspect for more glide, and smaller for more speed, so the wave does not overtake you.

When wind is below 12 knots, a 5 m2 Peak4 works magic, and when around and below 10 knots, a 6 m2 Peak4 is great and at its sweetspot.

Doesnt matter if the wind drops - the kites does not, and usually you can ride ashore foiling, instead of the boring (and in chop a bit tiresome) "sit on the board with your wing held high drifting slowly ashore".

That was my point, that now where wings and wingfoilwings has evolved, low end hasnt really moved, well just opposite, it has moved a bit up instead - for more fun and speed on the wave.

We have all kinds of wind here in Denmark, pressure systems passing by, seabreezes, channel wind effects, ground and coastal wind effects, and hundreds of spots in the near vicinity where I live.
But when too little wind, everybody is just PARKED on a wingfoil :wink:

In the honeymoon phase you just wanna wing whenever possible, and go out when wind is on the edge, telling yourself "it is good practice" (which it is when learning, so correct actually).
But later, these conditions are so annoying, being parked most of the time, hoping for a puff so you can pump yourself onto foil and get going :cry:

There are some who only wingfoil, they are often frustrated as they try and try and try, with no success, even when good riders, if wind is on the limit.

So having a kitefoil for fun or waves in the 9-12 knots is simply awesome IMO, and a perfect complement to wingfoil, IMO :thumb:

8) Peter
I don't see any reduction in the sale of 6m+ wings ........ most everyone at my local over 80kg's owns one.

And neither a 4m or 5m Peak4 will get me going in on-shore flat water conditions at 12 knots or under @ 105kg's ....... I might get going on an 8m @ 12 knots.


Return to “Wingsurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests