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Winging upwind

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Pierrot
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Winging upwind

Postby Pierrot » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:15 pm

I guess a fairly common question but I could not find a good explanation online.

I started to wing 2 weeks ago. I'm at session number 4. 115L board, 1850cm2 front wing, 5.5m A-wing. mostly wind from 15 to 20knt with higher gusts.
I have been flying since the first session (after 30 very frustrating minutes figuring out a way to water start in the small wind waves :-). Thanks to 6 or 7 years of kitefoiling!
I foil both sides no pb, started going toe side yesterday. managed the first few gybes. So overall pretty happy with the pace of learning.

But still struggling to understand what is the good technic to go upwind efficiently... I never thought I would get on a foiling watercraft and struggle to go upwind :o
So far, not a real issue, since we did downwinders or had a security boat to take us back to the launch spot, but this is a lot of logistic for afterwork sessions...

My issue is not with the board handling obviously. I can foil super high in the wind, to the point the wing goes out of the wind window and it start to luff and you loose power.
It is more with the wing handling I think.
- I tried bending the front arm and keeping the back arm straight - which results in puting the wing more to the back but also changing the angle of the wing in the wind and make it loose power early
- I tried the opposite keeping the front arm straight and sheeting in witht he back arm. which seems to work better, but is is exhausting.

So bottom line: any recommandation or tutorial on how to go upwind effiicently (ie. high angle and without killing your arms)?

Thanks!

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby Eltreato » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:27 pm

I have struggled through this same thing. I can kitefoil upwind like it's nothing and make great progress windfoiling upwind, but winging has been a much greater challenge, it's a bit better than kiting a twintip, but not much. What has helped for is using a harness. With a properly setup harness line I can lock in better on upwind reaches. I don't get tired as fast, and as a result I am more likely to continue pushing upwind, it also helps with upwind angles. I have seen tutorials maybe it was Alan Cadiz, who suggested pointing upwind and bearing off, pointing upwind and bearing off every few seconds, in almost a pulsing rhythm to point upwind. I also suspect if I had a higher aspect wing that it would be a great advantage for getting upwind. I'm using a Slingshot Infinity 84. Lastly, being well powered up makes a huge difference for me in going upwind. Rigging for the gusts means I spend a lot of time just holding ground and going across the wind or upwind slowly at best. Oh yeah, and I need to learn how to tack, jibing my way upwind loses me so much ground.

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:47 pm

Time!!!

That's all there is to it, no big secrets.

When new and you can foil comfortably, you most often can not go upwind well.

But it will come over time.

You can either ride slow and pinch upwind, or you can ride faster just a tad lower angle - both will get you upwind quite fast, eventhough two different ways.

Lean the wing back, without losing speed.

Upwind will come naturally itself IMO :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby Pierrot » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:26 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:47 pm
Time!!!

That's all there is to it, no big secrets.

When new and you can foil comfortably, you most often can not go upwind well.

But it will come over time.

Upwind will come naturally itself IMO :thumb:

8) Peter
You are assuming I’m a patient man :lol:
But thanks it is encouraging. Practice always makes it better.

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby mr_daruman » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:35 am

Time is factor but...that 115L board isn't helping either. Try kite foiling on 115L board, no matter your level the upwind struggle would be real. The same is true for winging. The oversize board size/weight is overloading your foils ability to efficiently go upwind. The smaller you go <up to a point> the way easier it gets to shoot upwind. My take anyways. I started with a LONG 100L, then switched right a way to a SHORT 75L...quite the difference. Now looking into a sub 50L board...

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby bragnouff » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:30 am

mr_daruman wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:35 am
Time is factor but...that 115L board isn't helping either. Try kite foiling on 115L board, no matter your level the upwind struggle would be real. The same is true for winging. The oversize board size/weight is overloading your foils ability to efficiently go upwind. The smaller you go <up to a point> the way easier it gets to shoot upwind. My take anyways. I started with a LONG 100L, then switched right a way to a SHORT 75L...quite the difference. Now looking into a sub 50L board...
I'm not too sure that the board size has that much of an impact on that regard? Short board will certainly make the whole ride more agile and nimble, it'll react quicker to your input, and have less momentum resisting direction changes, so for sure in transitions and all, the difference is significant, but as far as going upwind is concerned, I'm not convinced. He's an experienced foiler, so let's assume his balancing on the foil is pretty good.

What matters more I think is having the right posture, as that is what decides the relative position of the wing to the board, how you resist the pull of the wing and transmit it to the board and foil underneath. I've seen somewhere in a video that you have to imagine trying to hold a golf ball between your bum cheeks. That kind of ensures you're quite upright while riding. Then you want to lean a bit and angle the board a little bit on the roll axis. And you want to point it in right direction on the yaw axis. Obviously, not too high, not too low,... just right... In terms of wing position, time will help a lot, but you can experiment with different handles, or different hand positions and see what works best in terms of upwind ability. Palm up on the front hand helps push the wing further forward. If something works well but is painful, it will get less painful over time! Also using a different handle for back hand can change how much your elbow is bent. Harness also would remove some of the strain once you have the right position, and will let you do some longer tacks before your arms start to hurt.

Keep it real though, and keep in mind that you will not get the same angles and VMG that you have when kiting. You've been spoilt with kitefoiling! I've been using the same foil for both disciplines, and kiting takes me to the upwind target pretty much twice as fast.
And a final note on gear. Some wings have better upwind abilities than others. Quite a few people here use the PPC wings, which are very flat, tight canopy, tight trailing edge, and they all seem to get some better angles upwind than the others, or than on their previous wings.

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby OzBungy » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:42 am

Time is a factor, but not how you think. You can go upwind. It just takes a lot longer.

It won't matter how good you get at wing foiling it's never going to be close to the upwind performance of kite foiling. Maybe with specialised gear and ideal conditions and technique, but highly unlikely for any day to day riding.

The fundamental problem with wing foiling is you have zero power to play with. The whole point of the wing and foil is you have only enough power to get going on the foil and not a lot more. If you had more power you'd have to use a harness and all the other stuff.

I can go close to the upwind angles I get kiting but nowhere near the speed. I just set off and ride upwind and accept that it will take me an hour to do what I do in 15 minutes with a kite and foil. It's fine and it's fun. What else are you going to do? Ride back and forth in the same spot like all the others?

There's a heap of benefits of doing the upwind run. Number one is you get away from the crowd. I like the extended runs upwind because the intensity of conditions experienced and gybes completed is far greater than just mowing the lawn in one place. Your gybes and foot swaps matter because getting them wrong wastes all the ground you've made. I get to visit the other spots upwind and wave to the crew as I nonchalantly continue my journey.

On the return trip you can play with downwind swell riding and ins and outs in the wave line. The quality of session you get is far better than most.
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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:43 am

Board size doesn't matter at all.

The only reason you think so, is because when you switch down to a smaller board, time has passed and you are a better rider now, maybe also, without knowing, being more selective with the conditions you choose :rollgrin:

8) Peter
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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby mr_daruman » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 am

Well, I actually tested that today in 15+20 knots wind. It is A LOT TOUGHER to shoot upwind on my friends heavy and long 7'x26 105L(prob 6.5kg..) than my own 75L 5'5x25 (prob under 5kg). Same foil size. Gaved him my board, he was riding upwind easy nearly flying a couple of times; though had a touch time getting up of course.
So there's that. Not impossible but a lot harder/more physical. That long and heavy board nose wants to go downwind.
So I recommend, WHATEVER YOUR WEIGHT get something less than 100L and shorter than 6' when you start (after of course practicing on big boards). Cut down that nose length and get more width.

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Re: Winging upwind...

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:54 am

Did you ride strapless or with straps?


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