Wing punctures?

[Peter_Frank]

Hi, just curious - at first I thought I had "bad" wings, or was plain unlucky.

As I have had holes in the front bladder, several, close to the center maybe one or two foot to one side, and can be any way around the circumreference, not always the part that is down to the ground (bottom or top, one can lay it down either way).

But now, having talked to friends, it seems that quite some have had small punctures in the bladders

Different brands, so apparently not bad bladders.

Which I find odd, as the pressure is less than kites, but for some reason wings can have more punctures than kites.

Not interested to hear from all those who have never had a puncture - but those who have, do you know WHERE it comes from?
And in what part of the wing did you get a puncture?

When it is put on the ground, and something sharp goes through?

I still find it odd, compared to how rare it is on a kite

Is it tiny thorns that gets rolled into the bladder, and can make several holes in close vicinity later?

Is it the bigger diameter leading edges which, combined with the way they might bounce when left on the beach or ground, that makes them so sensitive?

Or is it just me that find it odd, that it seems to happen relatively often, even if you are careful

Peter

[leeuwen]

For what it is worth:
While at the beach my local repair guy was saying to a winger that whatever he was doing wrong packing his wing would potentially cause punctures.
(did not really attention what went wrong since I don't own a wing)
The repair guy indeed mentioned he was indeed seeing a lot of Wings with bladder failures as you mentioned.

[Janus]

Not interested to hear from all those who have never had a puncture - but those who have, do you know WHERE it comes from?
And in what part of the wing did you get a puncture?

I have a reaction you'r not interested in ..
I "never" had a puncture in my wings.. "never" because I only winged 17 sessions..
But all sessions are on soft grass underground so far.. and loosely packed wings, rolling the tips loosily to the middle and then folded to fit the bag.

[Peter_Frank]

For what it is worth:
While at the beach my local repair guy was saying to a winger that whatever he was doing wrong packing his wing would potentially cause punctures.
(did not really attention what went wrong since I don't own a wing)
The repair guy indeed mentioned he was indeed seeing a lot of Wings with bladder failures as you mentioned.

Interesting - as repair guys might see a higher number.
Although, for kitesurfers, repairing a wing puncture is a lot easier because of the wider shorter bladder, so most do it themeselves I assume.

Maybe it is the fact that wings are almost ALWAYS wet from saltwater when packed, and can be semiwet or dried up before next session.

Saltwater crystals???

With kites they are usually always dry, and the rare times they get wet we try to dry them up (I do, to avoid mildew/colour bleed).
A main difference between, as with wings they are wet every single time without exception.

So knowing this, maybe there is a difference whether you fold or roll the wing up?
Or maybe you can not avoid it from happening now and then...

Because I was thinking (now) it could be the dry salt crystals, which maybe can cause ruptures at the center of the wing where the bladder will fold inside and move a lot more sideways inside the LE tube, compared to at the thinner tips, so these apparently "for no reason" centre punctures comes from this fact?

There will actually be quite some pressure in the tube, where the bladder slides to position when you pump it up - must be very tough on ANY bladder.
Especially because we pump the wings harder than before, to be able to start less powered.

Sounds right in theory at least, that this is the cause

If so, how to avoid it?

I think Duotone and maybe others might know this, as I can see they have a short double bladder (material on the outside) at the very center of the wing, and punctures rarely occur here, but it still can happen.
Other wings have single bladder layers.

Maybe a thicker bladder can extend the time till it happens, or avoid it?

As said, it happens on many different wings/brands, and we dont want them too heavy either

A bit unpleasant, knowing that it does not help much to be careful where you rig up, if saltwater crystals are the culprit

Peter

[Jyoder]

One of my friends who’s become a dedicated wingfoiler has had a lot of wing bladder issues and thinks the R&D and QC was rushed on a lot of early wings due to high demand.

[Peter_Frank]

One of my friends who’s become a dedicated wingfoiler has had a lot of wing bladder issues and thinks the R&D and QC was rushed on a lot of early wings due to high demand.

I think you are right, and this is one reason why many, in particular early wings, blew up because of bad stitchings....

But I am pretty sure it is not the issue regarding punctures, as bladders are known technology, and they work fine when new, for a while, so it is something that comes along later, and not in the seam (as if, it could be bad quality indeed, like the early Cab bladders)

If it was a typical bladder quality issue, it would happen all over the front tube, and/or at the seam I would say.

Peter

[bragnouff]

A main difference between, as with wings they are wet every single time without exception.

I think the main issue is with packing wet wings. Once the LE is deflated, there is room for salt crystals to settle between bladder and dacron. And repeated folding would increase abrasion and over time create micro punctures. Sand getting inside the bladder through the pump intake is also a similar risk. More pumping than a kite, so potentially more sand getting in.

I don't want to jinx it, but no such thing for me at this stage. But I've had other issues!

It might be more of a problem in Denmark in winter, but I'm trying my best to pack my wings dry. And for that, I take special care when dismounting or when carrying my gear towards the shore to keep the wing airborne and feathered in the wind, instead of just dragging it in water.
I also loosely roll each tip towards the center, then fold in 3, like a kite, avoiding tight packing. And for the times when the wing is wet, and no chance to dry up before packing, I keep center strut inflated, and loosely roll it. Old school kitebags that extend are pretty handy to have for that.

[juandesooka]

salt crystals makes some sense. Or even just more likely to get sand grains in the leading edge, which then cause abrasion. It is pretty common in shore pound conditions that the wing will get some wave rinsing -- way more common than kiting.

But also just the nature of rigging, leaving in between sessions in the wind, these things get so much more abuse. Sharp grass is a culprit too for pinholes

[jkrug]

one thing i've noticed is people putting their wet wings on seagrass/grass to dry them out and avoid sand before packing up. grass can definitely cause small punctures in bladders; have had it happen to my kites. since our wings are always wet after a session (as opposed to our kites), this type of action happens much more frequently with wings. not saying that's your problem, but beware the grass, especially with still-inflated wing.

[Peter_Frank]

Good deductions guys

The thing is, we are careful, but still get more pinholes than with kites, so there MUST be a big difference IMO.

Sharp grass is one enemy yes, shells another.
So it the wing is bobbing around when tied to the leash for breaks or drying - it can be one cause to the holes.

Another could be sand, as we sometimes drag the wings trough low water or small shorebreak where sand is everywhere in the water.

Or it could be the salt crystals.

Personally I believe sand or salt crystals is the cauce - based on the fact it hardly never happens on our kites.

Drying the wing is out of the question for most wingers I would say...
Takes forever even when warm, and the inside being dry - you dont know, and in the winter not possible.
Maybe it wont help, as it you dry it before packing, salt crystals are still present, and I believe it is the next rigging which is the main culprit here - when bladder slides into place while having some or a lot of pressure.
You also dont know which size you are using the next day, so wet packed wings is a thing one can not avoid (within reason)

Peter