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633 too small, but...?

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galewarning
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633 too small, but...?

Postby galewarning » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:14 pm

I know a 633 Phantasm kit is a bit too small and too low aspect to be optimum, but looks like that's what life and the current budget limits me to for a few months.
The 633 will require a bit more constant drive from the wing, since the 633 isn't the best glider, but hopefully my former windsurfer self won't mind the extra work.
So, my question is: How much of a hurdle will learning to wing with my 633 kite foil be, until I can buy a larger front foil for my kit?
BTW, I'm ~168 # / 75 kg. And I'm at the point of the kite foiling curve, where I can ride both stances heel or toe, but can't foot-change yet.
-TIA, Barry

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby StellaBlu » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:34 pm

Incidentally, I just posted about my recent experience winging with a low aspect foil on another forum (see below). Short answer - it is a lot harder to learn on that setup, but you should still give it a go. Just don't get discouraged. Its a much different experience versus using purpose built, higher aspect foils, but if you can wing on the 633, you will be a better winger for it. As you noted, you need to keep the power on and can't rely on glide or pump. Jibes and tacks need to be quick (use waves / chop to keep some power in the foil). I think the 633 is very slightly smaller, and even lower aspect than the x1300 I was using. Size isn't really the issue at 1200 sqcm+, its an issue of shape / AR.

_______

First day into a winging trip I broke my foil (longer story there). I managed to scrounge up a Cabrinha x1300 foil (1300 sqcm, 4.7 AR) to save my trip. To-date I had only winged on mid/high aspect foils.

HUGE adjustment to use this foil, and a MAJOR compromise in performance from what I'm used to. Laterally very "tippy", zero glide, one-speed, and no ability to recover from a breach (spectacular blow ups when combined with a shorter mast than I was used to). I basically felt like a beginner again for the first day or so.

But after that, I started to really enjoy figuring this thing out. I could RIP turns on it like no other foil I was used to (actually I had to rip turns because the foil couldn't glide through a turn). While I couldn't really progress new maneuvers on it, I am sure figuring out how to ride this thing made me a much better rider. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use this foil by choice, but it saved my trip and I had a ton of fun on it.

My takeaways:
- Riding new (and potentially sub-optimal) gear was interesting and educational.
- Low aspect foils can turn like no mid/high aspect foil I have used - and these turns are a lot of fun when you dial them in.
- I spend too much time optimizing my gear. You can have a lot of fun on any setup. Ride what you got.
- I feel like people recommend beginners starting on lower aspect foil setups (maybe I'm wrong about this though). After my experience I feel like that's a terrible idea. This setup was very challenging.

When was the last time you winged a low aspect setup?
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galewarning (Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:06 am)
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airsail
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby airsail » Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:54 pm

I normally ride a 1040sqcm HA wing, but bolted the 633 on for a couple of sessions. Worked fine, took a bit more to get going due to the increased drag and more pressure on the arms going upwind. Lateral stability wasn’t as good on the 633 but top speed was about the same.

If I only had the 633 to ride I would adapt, but the 1040HA is a better option.
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grigorib
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby grigorib » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:46 pm

633 is not too small for your weight
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galewarning (Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:07 am)
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:00 pm

Just go on learning with the 633.

Yes you need power as size is small and less lift because of lower AR, but it will work, and also have a very easy stall behaviour, fine when learning.

The good thing is, most wings having a span around 90 cm and higher, are really slow turning, I hate that myself.

But one need to make a compromise, if you like to ride waves and surf/glide.

My 91 cm turns a bit slow because of the span yes, my 85 cm is much more fun carving - but the 91 cm has a lot better glide and starts earlier, so my most used foilwing now.

The point is, one of the first things I remember learning after the initial "learn to control and ride straight in control", was to carve around swapping the wing, and then carve back again on a small wave - felt great, and so much better with lower AR and low span wings.
Or swept and anhedral wings - better turning more lively, but partly on cost of glide.

So eventhough you dont get the glide and early start, you get a much better turning wing, so enjoy this instead, when you eventually reach this level :thumb:

I always see "lateral stability" as a very negative property, as it means dull and slow turning and in my eyes no advantage in itself :naughty:
But as it is always connected to wings with better glide, this compromise must sometimes exist.

8) Peter
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galewarning (Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:07 am)
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galewarning
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby galewarning » Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:06 am

Thanks to everyone who responded. I"ll eventually get a PTM 926, PFI 730 or 835 [?] front wing. But for an upcoming vacation, I'll use my existing 633 kit to give winging a go, when I'm not kite foiling.
-Thx again

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby irwe » Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:42 am

Place your 633 at the very front in your box to get maximum lift
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joekitetime
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby joekitetime » Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:30 pm

I winged with the 633. Once. And that was after winging with at least 10 other foils. I had to be so lit that it literally the power in the wing nearly ripped my arms off.

For winging it was terrible. I and I wing with other kite foils which are far better. I just really didn't like my favorite kite foil of all time for winging. Never again.
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:39 pm

True - but I still think it is fine to go out and try, as he has no other options but try, or leave it and only kitefoil (now)

You have tried other wings, meaning used to the low force needed, so it will be a bummer going from a lifting wing to one requiring loads of power yes.

But in fact it could be an advantage - that he can practice without risking getting shot up in the air, like many first time wingers do, on BIG foilwings.

I would not ride with such a small low aspect wing myself either - but some do, also smaller but typically higher aspect so okay lift.

8) Peter
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galewarning
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby galewarning » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:10 pm

As a fledgling kite foiler, I don't miss that stage of the learning curve. It was so hard to undo the TT muscle memory of applying heel pressure when things go wrong...
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:39 pm
... it could be an advantage - that he can practice without risking getting shot up in the air, like many first time wingers do, ...
8) Peter


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