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Wingsurfing wing construction

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juandesooka
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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby juandesooka » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:44 pm

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:50 pm

Kai did! From 6'30"
There you go, proof of concept! Reading the comments, I'm reminded the big brand name for these was "Wind Weapon", searching that finds some info in this thread about the evolution of inflated wings from these rigid versions:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index ... 68.15.html

The video clearly shows it works...so what are pros and cons? Cons: It doesn't float, may not luff as well wave riding, hard surfaces to land on. Pros, a lot less likely to get eaten by our hungry foils.

I wonder if next gen of wind wings might build in some of these rigid elements in a hybrid? Seems like there's potential.

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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby Bille » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:19 am

juandesooka wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:44 pm
...

There you go, proof of concept! Reading the comments, I'm reminded the big brand name for these was "Wind Weapon", searching that finds some info in this thread about the evolution of inflated wings from these rigid versions:
...
Just from looking at the pictures from old to current state of the art
for Wingie-thingies ...
Nothing personal here ; but the newest best out there right now , is about =
to what state of the art was for a Hang Glider , (30 years ago). :(

Bille

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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby juandesooka » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 pm

I wonder if there may be some big improvement coming that changes everything. The wing resurgence is only 3 years old, there was an initial race to market, and it seems pretty clear everyone copied the early adopters just with small tweaks.

On the other hand, there’s a whole bunch of extremely smart and experienced designers on this, all madly searching for an angle to differentiate their product … so it also may be that if there was an easy improvement, it would already be done.

As well, there are wing riders now who had/have WindWings or WindWeapons, and choose the new style wings over them – so that seems to be evidence their cons outweigh their pros, whether weight or float or handling. I suspect the fundamental weakness may be in how the rigid wings luff. IMHO Winging is 99% about depowered wave riding, so the wing part is a personal tow-in and the best part of the winging experience is actually when the wing is not in use. ;-) If rigid wings are most effective when fully powered, then maybe that’ll be a race thing.

Anyways...will be interesting to see what evolves in next few gens.

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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby Bille » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:16 am

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 pm
...
If rigid wings are most effective when fully powered, then maybe that’ll be a race thing.

Anyways...will be interesting to see what evolves in next few gens.
If done properly ; a rigid will have a Way more usable speedrange .

Bille

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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby fluidity » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:39 am

Bille wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:16 am
juandesooka wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 pm
...
If rigid wings are most effective when fully powered, then maybe that’ll be a race thing.

Anyways...will be interesting to see what evolves in next few gens.
If done properly ; a rigid will have a Way more usable speedrange .

Bille
Your question at the beginning was close, yes inflateables are much better to crash into than rigid structure wings. The impact area is spread out. Not only that, but they are also forgiving of blunt impacts and errors.
If you haven't wingsurfed before though, you're missing the more important point, usability. For example Duotone started with a full boom, then a partial boom, now they are down to two rigid handles. This is in addition to a an inflatable boom in their last two major models. Duotone aren't known for having light wings either. You should not underestimate the rigidity of a well inflated structure with high tensile strength fibres. Alula usage enhances this significantly, while permitting concurrent diameter reduction of the inflated structure.
A non inflated rigid structure still requires resilience for impacts, no shredding or breaking that might impale, and sufficient structural rigidity to allow the wing working area to retain a useful shape.
I get the feeling you are stuck in a mode of feeling you have superior technical knowlege of better wing shapes without practical understanding of the use case in an up close and personal manner. I really think you should put the time and effort, adventure into learning how to wingsurf and retain your ideas, goals, but adapt them AFTER learning, because any wing that doesn't pop straight up to the surface of the water to be easily detached and flown is at an immediate usability disadvantage, most especially learning. Thin rigid structure wings may be a thing in the future for racing, but they still need contouring to permit high stall angles and utilise the coanda effect to resist flow separation on the upper surface. By the time you build a rigid structure capable of all this, you also will have issues with finding the compromise level between weight and shape plus the fragility of a shape that is more complex than an ILE wing. I think ram air wings and ram air under-membranes would be much more productive research avenues for you. Do consider that you will be holding the wing structure and any offsetting of it's weight by aparent wind's lift will be a parasitic drag.
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fluidity
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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby fluidity » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:47 am

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 pm
I wonder if there may be some big improvement coming that changes everything. The wing resurgence is only 3 years old, there was an initial race to market, and it seems pretty clear everyone copied the early adopters just with small tweaks.

On the other hand, there’s a whole bunch of extremely smart and experienced designers on this, all madly searching for an angle to differentiate their product … so it also may be that if there was an easy improvement, it would already be done.

As well, there are wing riders now who had/have WindWings or WindWeapons, and choose the new style wings over them – so that seems to be evidence their cons outweigh their pros, whether weight or float or handling. I suspect the fundamental weakness may be in how the rigid wings luff. IMHO Winging is 99% about depowered wave riding, so the wing part is a personal tow-in and the best part of the winging experience is actually when the wing is not in use. ;-) If rigid wings are most effective when fully powered, then maybe that’ll be a race thing.

Anyways...will be interesting to see what evolves in next few gens.
My pick in trends is that F-One's inflatable end struts will be next to come in for other brands because it permits better tip reflex control.

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fluidity
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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby fluidity » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:47 am

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 pm
I wonder if there may be some big improvement coming that changes everything. The wing resurgence is only 3 years old, there was an initial race to market, and it seems pretty clear everyone copied the early adopters just with small tweaks.

On the other hand, there’s a whole bunch of extremely smart and experienced designers on this, all madly searching for an angle to differentiate their product … so it also may be that if there was an easy improvement, it would already be done.

As well, there are wing riders now who had/have WindWings or WindWeapons, and choose the new style wings over them – so that seems to be evidence their cons outweigh their pros, whether weight or float or handling. I suspect the fundamental weakness may be in how the rigid wings luff. IMHO Winging is 99% about depowered wave riding, so the wing part is a personal tow-in and the best part of the winging experience is actually when the wing is not in use. ;-) If rigid wings are most effective when fully powered, then maybe that’ll be a race thing.

Anyways...will be interesting to see what evolves in next few gens.
My pick in trends is that F-One's inflatable struts will be next to come in for other brands because it permits better tip reflex control.

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Bille
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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby Bille » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:45 am

fluidity wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:39 am
...
I think ram air wings and ram air under-membranes would be much more productive research avenues for you. Do consider that you will be holding the wing structure and any offsetting of it's weight by aparent wind's lift will be a parasitic drag.
I think, you may be correct , on that assessment ; it's the part
about Holding the wing , that's when ya got my attention !!! :o

Thanks for the advise ... ; I hadn't considered that part . :thumb:


Bille

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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby fluidity » Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:21 am

Bille wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:45 am
fluidity wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:39 am
...
I think ram air wings and ram air under-membranes would be much more productive research avenues for you. Do consider that you will be holding the wing structure and any offsetting of it's weight by aparent wind's lift will be a parasitic drag.
I think, you may be correct , on that assessment ; it's the part
about Holding the wing , that's when ya got my attention !!! :o

Thanks for the advise ... ; I hadn't considered that part . :thumb:


Bille
I'm not as young as I used to be. 55 and I've made a lot of mistakes on the way to still not knowing much about the universe we live in :wink:

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Re: Wingsurfing wing construction

Postby foursquare » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:25 pm

Bille wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:36 pm
foursquare wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:57 pm
Learning to wing was already so hard, couldnt imagine trying to do it in my home-made design that follows an approach the major brands abandoned
Here Dude ; read this, and hopefully you will have the cognitive resources
to understand ,
why constructing and learning a devise as simple as this ---
It won't be a problem , for me !!

No disrespect intended (.)

https://www.thekiteboarder.com/2010/10/ ... lly-floyd/
Learning to wing was already so hard, couldnt imagine trying to do it in my home-made design that follows an approach the major brands abandoned, AND with prosthetic legs!!!! You're breaking into jail dude!
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