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Pansh - what to check on arrival?

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foilholio
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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby foilholio » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:07 am

Interesting. Well the 5 Pansh I have had were all fine. Adam fine, Genesis I guess ok but flew much better after mod, Aurora 1 good, but much better after mod, A15 great and again more improved by mod. I have only modded the kites because I saw a way to improve them or others did and being so cheap I wasn't concerned with ruining them. That said I have modded and changed flysurfer kites quite a bit.

Any foil kite can collapse, earlier foil kites from flysurfer collapsed much easier. The tune of kites usually naturally changes to want to collapse more. Some kites need AoA restricted, but often it is a profile problem or pilot error.

For the money I think Pansh are the best value in kiting. Considering how truly low their cost is expecting something 100% on par with the latest Flysurfer or Ozone is very unreasonable. That said some of their kites are really good. The fact they have had issues with kites particularly older ones is true of any brand. The fact they still sell some older models is a little unusual. All brands have quality issues even the beloved Flysurfer. The fact I can get 5 kites that are not bad says to me there is no major problem with Pansh.

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby Windigo1 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:29 am

I also bought 5 of them and they all flew well and I still use them. The Aurora 2 flew perfect out of the bag no mods, I have used my 2 Genesis a lot last winter they are very stable in gusty wind a bit slow turning but still ok. You have to shorten the back lines but that's not a huge deal. At 1/10 the price of a similar snowkite from the big brands I can live with a bit of tweaking. The bad thing with Pansh is the complete lack of customer support if you have an issue you will never get any help from them. If you know what you are getting into it can be worth it for a basic kite for snowkiting or buggying.

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:21 am

I read these reviews on the 8m Aurora1 with the following summary of comments/fixes.
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31972
Doesn't fly out of the bag. I added 25cm leader lines to the top lines. Shorten the B-line speed system 7cm. And shorten the Z-line 6cm. Lofty power!
https://www.extremekites.com.au/reviews ... ra-8m-r37/
First flight, straight from the bag, didn't go as excitingly as I hoped. shortened the rear lines, several times until 150mm had been taken out. then it flew but would tuck at zenith. further adjustment and the rear lines were 200mm shorter and it would sit nicely but always on power. as soon as I touched the center line trim it would again tuck the nose and collapse. so I thought it through, looked at the speed stystem and realised that as you depower the kite, it was able to reduce the aoa too far and the wind would be ontop of the canopy and push it down. I stopped this with a small mod of a rubber grommet on the speed system. it allows the kite to be powered up, but on depowering it would only let the b lines go as far as I wanted which left the a and b line identical lengths. this maintains a positive aoa at the front of the kite keeping it steady and sitting as it should. upon further depowering it would still allow the c lines to slacken and essentially break the back of the aerofoil resulting in some reflex and loss of lift. ive used grommets so its adjustable and later I may be able to change the line length its on instead. now I have only tried the mod in low winds but did help the kite to zenith by running backwards and there was no tuck but only stalling due to low wind. infact when the wind picked up enough the kite sat what looked like past the window directly above, this made me worry but it still didn't tuck or fall. could be a good sign? we will see, as soon as I get out in decent conditions.

UPDATE!!!!! The mod on the speed system needed tweeking to make it reliable. The rubber grommets didn't work as one broke under use and allowed one edge to tuck again. I Replaced them with metal rings and tweeked it further. When fully depowered the a lines are 1/2 inch above the b lines at the gather knot. This little positive aoa keeps it flying while allowing for good depower. Tacks were a sinch and suicide gybes became sexy all the while being able to throw the bar away, depower, hold the line and not worry about the kite.
So I ordered up an Aurora2, the colors have changed and looks like the bridle attachments at the wingtips were changed in the line-plans. Took 2 weeks to arrive and looks good for a new kite. I set it up on 30m/100ft lines on a 52cm bar and single front line safety. It did fly first time out, but between 11-12-1 o’clock a gust would push it to over-fly and luff. Below 11 or 1 o’clock it flew forward in the window but not enough to luft Adjusting the bar trim it flew best when I could pull in the bar (rear lines) enough to have it stall/brake effect with the Z-Line trailing edge in. The kite makes more lift than I would have expected from an 8m depower kite, so I don’t mind loosing some lift/power to improve stability eliminating over-flying. I assume shorter lines might help by reducing the size of the window, next time out I'll try some 15m lines.
8mAurora2.jpg
8mAurora2.jpg (54.32 KiB) Viewed 1291 times
Hoping I can fix the luffing with bridle and/or mixer changes only. Before getting into the A, B, C, Z adjustment details, wanted to understand a few more whys.
http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/Pilot_Tuning.php
If for example, a parafoil has 3 bridles per cell, (conventionally called A, B, and C), then pulling in B on one side outer cell without changing A or C will de-camber that cell and pull the kite towards that side. The reason this works is because, as from above, less camber means less lift, more drag.
So I assume the kite has too much camber when depowered and generates enough lift to fly at the edge of the window. A gust gives it a little more lift, the kite flies even further forward, then a lull and the kite leading edge is first to loose lift, it distorts or pitches down enough to then have the top pressure increase enough to stall.

Reading a bit more...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_(aerodynamics)
...camber is a complex property, that can be more fully characterized by an aerofoil's camber line, the curve Z(x) that is halfway between the upper and lower surfaces, and thickness function T(x), which describes the thickness of the aerofoil at any given point. An aerofoil where the camber line curves back up near the trailing edge is called a reflexed camber aerofoil. Such an aerofoil is useful in certain situations, such as with tailless aircraft, because the moment about the aerodynamic center of the aerofoil can be 0.
CamberReflexLine.jpg
CamberReflexLine.jpg (24.7 KiB) Viewed 1291 times

And for span-wise and chord-wise adjustable non-rigid wing like a kites and paragliders:
http://dudekparaglidersusa.com/about-pa ... x-profile/
ParafoilReflex.jpg
ParafoilReflex.jpg (99.4 KiB) Viewed 1291 times
421SideView.jpg
421SideView.jpg (36.15 KiB) Viewed 1291 times
421FrontView.jpg
421FrontView.jpg (34.31 KiB) Viewed 1291 times
Aurora2LinePlan.jpg
Aurora2LinePlan.jpg (29.23 KiB) Viewed 1291 times

I understand some adjustments to keep the COP from moving too far forward when sheeted out are:

1. Limiting the minimum AOA by lengthening A line or shortening mixer lines. This reduces depower range of the kite.

2. Reducing the camber line by shortening the B and C line. This will reduce lift, efficiency, and wind range.

3. Reducing the camber line by adding a WAC line that limits the B and C line range. This will reduce lift, efficiency, and wind range.

4. Adding reflex mid-span by shortening B or C line. This reduces lift, efficiency, and wind range.

5. Adding drag by shortening Z line. This moves the COP rearward but will reduce efficiency, and wind range.

And probably others, suggestions welcome…


Update/Modification1
8mAurora2-Mod1.jpg

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby NorthernKitesAus » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:39 am

Thanks for that reply there @Pug.
In my opinion, and from experience with Pansh since 2010, I have to say their kite design skills have improved ten-fold, especially with the Aurora ii kites and the Aeolus race foils. The problems have not been so much from their poor design of the kite itself, but from crap bridle design and quality. Since the latest kites from late 2017, have been getting better and better. The A15 is no better than the Aurora 1, so I would avoid that like the plaque and so with their older Blaze depower / closed cell kites.
I own the Genesis 2019 12m, Pansh Aurora II 15m and 10m sizes, standard cloth. I have not had a problem with the kites and they've flown perfectly out of the bag. Bar and lines were mine and had to be of equal length of course. I did own the Pansh Aurora 1 from 2010 once and it flew like a dog's breakfast, but I had to modify the bridles entirely to get it to stabalise and not lull or fluff into a bow-tie. I am glad to say, those days are over for Pansh. So what if you have to modify a foil kite anyway? If you're an audiophile like I am, the art of flying a kite comes in the tweaks and adjustments. That's real kite flying. Quite frankly, Pansh's newer kites really do put the big guns to shame in their pricing. Try a Pansh! You will not regret it.

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:49 pm

Yea, kind of a long winded post...here's another. I agree, if you like tinkering and want an inexpensive platform, go for it. Usually better to start with a new kite than a used kite, especially with a foil kite… learned that in this post.. When I go to the beach to kitesurf I want my gear to work and be reliable to get me back safe. So when you get a used kite or an unfamiliar kite like Pansh you’ll need to be willing to spend the time and effort to test it out to convince yourself it’s worthy of a kitesurf day…

I’ve also flown the Pansh Aurora1-19, A15-18m, A15-15m, A15-12m, Ace1-7m, Sprint-5m kites. Sprint flew perfect, Ace1 never did. The Aurora1 needed tweeking, the A15s flew fine without modifications (on 2:1 pulley bars for the larger 18m and 15m kites). Think the higher the aspect ratio and smaller the kite the more details come into play, the more amplified the tuning errors become and the gustier stronger winds they get flown in. Thought I’d try the smallest Aurora2 before maybe getting an Aeolus in tune.

For the 8m Aurora2, it flew much better with the two A lines extended (the line between the bridle junction A1/A23/A45 and the X/Y/Pigtail junction in the Pansh line diagram). Like the last photo shows, I made these new A lines out of amsteel so it was strong, and I made it a little long so I could add/remove knots to easily tune the kite. I did this with a mixer test assuming somewhere around A=Z, B=0, C=0 would be the designer’s intention for neutral tuning. I noticed the left and right mixers were exactly the same, which indicate good quality build as the bridle lengths + kite panels variation on left=right. I have learned to change only one parameter at a time when tuning, to avoid guessing which of the multiple changes caused the different flying characteristics. But, I did also add a 5th line so I can QR during tests without the kite spinning to the ground. I think I have now tuned and flown it enough static to convince me to spend a day on the water with it. What I have found tuning was:

(A) Stock, Mixer A=Z, B=+2.25”, C=+1.5”, A=46.75” Flys far forward, stable +/-30deg and lower, unstable higher above, gusts push kite forward then the lulls cause unstable recovery.

(B) Mod1, Mixer A=Z, B=+0.75”, C=+0.5”, A=49.25”, Flys less forward, stable overhead and lower, better feel/control over the kite, recovers from small gusts, higher gusts still can push kite into an unstable recovery.

(C) Mod2, Mixer A=Z, B=0”, C=0”, A=49.75”, Flys less forward, stable overhead and lower, better feel/control over the kite, recovers from small gusts, higher gusts can cause a little luffing but does not push kite into an unstable recovery. The wingtips sometimes fold up a little when flown below 45deg. They quickly shake back into shape tho. The wingtip folds are sometimes things found in static flying a high AR kite, but not so much when in motion with apparent/added wind stabilizing it.

I also tried flying (C) Mod2 on 6m lines as all my other tests were on 30m lines. With the 30m lines my rear/steering lines need to be 7”+ longer. With the 6m lines I extended the steering lines 7” but it did not control well. I put the bar with 6m lines at equal length and it flew fine. This indicates to me that the 30m lines (600# Centers, 500# rears both 12 braid spectra) need 7” more droop/sag to fly right. I fly a few other 15m+ foils on 30m lines, but 30m lines might be long for an 8m foil. But now that my bar is tuned with 30m lines and a 5th line to match, I’m going to keep this setup for now. I was going to extend the 2 kite pigtails 7” (to make the kite work with a universal/equal line bar) but this would only work with 30m lines, so no short-cuts to matching the bar/lines to the kite. So if I decide to try shorter (20-25m) lines later, I’ll plan to retune the bar (not the kite).

I think the 30m lines are probably the worst case for having the overfly due to gusts as, the window is larger, gusts can push the kite further forward and faster, and then kite has more momentum. Once tuned I could let go of the bar to sheet out in gusts and the kite did not overfly. This is what I wanted so when in the water managing gear I can simply let the bar go in gusts and the kite will recover. Looking forward to getting out on the water with it. If others decided to get the smallest Aurora2, post up how it flew and any mods you did. Hopefully all this typing can be helpful to someone else someday.

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby norcom » Thu May 09, 2019 4:04 pm

Finally decided to try a Pansh. Picked up the "new" Genesis 2019 3m to try as a training kite for my girlfriend. Looked great out of the bag! Bridal lines didn't feel Ozone/Flysurfer quality but the kite looked well built and overall I was impressed.

Then I took it for a test flight in 15-20mph wind and this is where I was majorly disappointed. Maybe not that much, it was somewhat expected. :lol: The kite just backstalls when completely sheeted in on a tuned 4 line bar; literally just goes to land. Even with the bar all the way out it just sits deep in the center of the window. Depowering all the way was the ONLY way to get it to fly to zenith but the kite felt like complete crap because you could barely turn it now. It did have some power in the loops and I felt that I could have gotten up with a surf foil but wasn't worth trying.

Any suggestions on what to mod first? I can fly it but it's definitely not suitable for teaching with.

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Mon May 13, 2019 11:47 pm

Back stalls when sheeting and needing to depower all the way, then I’d suggest lengthen your steering lines with longer pigtails so depowering is not needed. After that, another test could be to fly it on very short lines to see what is happening with the mixer and kite in flight and what characteristics you might try to change.

I would not expect much power or control from a 3m depower foil on a bar. I had a 5m Montana Version1 depower foil that I finally figured out would never fly stable at zenith, needed 20mph to control/use in flight, and much above 25mph the gusts were troublesome. Under power it worked, but flying static was a pain. I have noticed the smaller the depower foil (sizes 19m -to- 8m), the more sensitive it is to mixer tuning, line lengths, adding a 5th line, controlling in gusts, etc… I had a 3m scout fixed bridle kite and determined 4 line foil kites under 5m do not control very well on a bar. The scout flew fine on handles tho. You could try the kite on handles, but you might need to also to change it to a fixed bridle. 2 line foil kites 1-4m seem to work fine using a bar. And using an old ozone turbo bar for 4 line fixed bridle kites seemed to work on 5m and up sizes.

I tuned the 8m Aurora2 on 30m lines to fly in light wind and so far it is good for landboard cruising in my lowest windrange 5-12mph winds. I’ll need to get more proficient with a surf foil before trying it on the water. I’ve rode on the landboard with low AR Fixed bridle Beamer kites in 3m (25m Lines), 4m (30m Lines), 5m (30m lines), Method Med-High AR 6.5m (30m Lines), and Sprint High AR 5m (20m Lines). The 8m A2 is better at low wind than the 5m and 6.5m fixed bridle kites because of the kite size (gets going in super low wind) and then depowers (once moving need less pull) and goes upwind slow well (efficient higher AR). So, even my 8m is only good for small niche riding conditions. Sorry, I would not use a depower foil kite for kite training. But maybe you can find a way? Let us know.
Last edited by PugetSoundKiter on Tue May 14, 2019 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pansh - what to check on arrival?

Postby foilholio » Tue May 14, 2019 3:26 am

Maybe we should keep this in the one thread?

viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2402973&start=10
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