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climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

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Matteo V
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:56 pm

Havre wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:41 pm
Yes. Because when countries sign these agreements that means they will always follow up on them.
Please note when you intend a comment to be sarcastic. This is an international forum with many users using English as a second language. Sarcasm doesn't translate well.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:04 pm

SimonP wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:35 pm
Except its not actually a question anymore. It is almost certain that 50% of the observed warming is anthropogenic in cause. It is highly likely that more than 100% of the observed warming is anthropogenic.
What you first state is that we know for sure that a certain percentage of warming is proven to be the result of man's activities.

This is NOT something we are certain of. Our understanding of the entire system is still in its infancy.


But you also give away your dedication to the AGW narrative by stating on which side you express your unfounded belief to be in err on.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Havre » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:08 pm

Tongue-in-cheek I guess. Slightly humorous.

I find it interesting how seemingly the "science" differs with actual behaviour. We have our "priests" on here as we find them elsewhere as well, but how many are actually willing to sacrifice material goods for that belief? Some clearly do, but I would argue the "masses" are only doing so very superficially.

In Norway almost all of our electricity is hydropower. So I guess after we have ruined our rivers etc. they are "renewable". So unlike if you are buying an electric car in Poland you are actually running on somewhat clean energy here (if you are not assuming we could sell that energy abroad if we didn't use electric cars). On top of that Norway is one of the richest countries in the world (ironically mainly due to oil and gas). Meaning most Norwegians could easily "sacrifice" some material goods and still be far better off than most people on this planet. So are we? Electric cars are heavily subsidized and whenever some benefit is taken away there is an outcry among our local "priests" fearing that people will then stop buying them. Why? Do we not believe in "science"?

That is not an argument for the "science" being incorrect of course, but for something seemingly so obvious it seems like "you" are doing a rather poor job explaining it to the masses? Other than through condescending comments on forums like this of course.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:43 pm

Pemba wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:40 pm
Almost 200 pages now.. This topic can be summarized by one side saying "people are causing climate change" and the other side saying "there is no proof of that". Repeat, repeat. Question would be are the indications strong enough for us to "do something" or not.
Those seem to be the two sides as definded by those buying into the global warming narrative. But that explanation is very much wrong.

The reality is that most of the skeptics out there see the real issues as being deeper than that such as:

1. Legislation/mandates in the west creating huge profits for corporations via subsidies being sold as a way to create jobs and continue the "growth". All the while "growth" is the problem we should be fixing.

2. International agreements that specifically weaken the west, and strengthen the 2nd and 3rd world. This eventually leads to point where there is 100% surety that the west will no longer have any say in enviormental (or human rights) policy globally in the future. And it is also clear that the 2nd and 3rd world will not think or act as kindly to the earth with respect to the global enviorment as the west has.

3. The enviormental destruction caused by the supposed solution (wind, solar, biomass) to the supposed fossil fuel problem - having the potential to be more of an environmental disaster than what it is there to fix.


So no, it is not that as simple as the AGW narrative you have bought into. I would suggest you watch "Planet Of The Humans".



Very good film, but the real eye opener is the attacks the creators have suffered by those who have seen it as an attack on thier sacred enviormental narrative of AGW. Even more interesting is how the large corporations, whose profit and growth stems from the subsidies which the AGW narrative supports, are actually "in bed with" nearly all leaders of the enviormental movement for the purpose of profit.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:02 pm

Havre wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:08 pm
I find it interesting how seemingly the "science" differs with actual behaviour. We have our "priests" on here as we find them elsewhere as well, but how many are actually willing to sacrifice material goods for that belief? Some clearly do, but I would argue the "masses" are only doing so very superficially.
Here is the way it works:

Believers think that if they give up something, but skeptics don't, then the believers will suffer while skeptics don't. The narrative also conveniently contains the belief that EVERYONE must be forced to suffer, or there is no benefit from the suffering. However, this is only selectively applied based on the situation.

The Paris accords are an example of a loophole, giving up the above logic when applied in a situation of "west suffers now - maybe 2nd and 3re world suffers later". Even in this example when it is obvious that a weakened western world will not be able to enforce the origional 2nd and 3rd world promise, this still fits another part of the narrative - '1kg of pollution produced by the west is worse than 1millionkg of pollution produced in the 2nd and 3rd world.

If you can't see this as "religion", you will not be able to understand it.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Sammy00 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:41 pm

It’s awful! I believe that all people should unite to save the planet. With small steps, we can do a great job. It is a pity that the owners of large factories do not understand this, because they are mainly responsible for environmental pollution. Because of such factories in my city the situation with ecology and the raised radiation is very bad. I even had to buy a gamma radiation warning device https://ecotestgroup.com/products/agent-r/ to monitor radiation levels. Very useful thing, it's a pity I didn't buy it before.
Last edited by Sammy00 on Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby SimonP » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:55 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:04 pm
SimonP wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:35 pm
Except its not actually a question anymore. It is almost certain that 50% of the observed warming is anthropogenic in cause. It is highly likely that more than 100% of the observed warming is anthropogenic.
What you first state is that we know for sure that a certain percentage of warming is proven to be the result of man's activities.
This is NOT something we are certain of. Our understanding of the entire system is still in its infancy.
But you also give away your dedication to the AGW narrative by stating on which side you express your unfounded belief to be in err on.
There is a huge body of scientific literature. Google Scholar claims 144,000 papers on AGW attribution which I encourage you to read sometime rather than floundering in some self-referential internet bubble.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... ate+change

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:58 am

Havre wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:08 pm
Tongue-in-cheek I guess. Slightly humorous.

I find it interesting how seemingly the "science" differs with actual behaviour. We have our "priests" on here as we find them elsewhere as well, but how many are actually willing to sacrifice material goods for that belief? Some clearly do, but I would argue the "masses" are only doing so very superficially.

In Norway almost all of our electricity is hydropower. So I guess after we have ruined our rivers etc. they are "renewable". So unlike if you are buying an electric car in Poland you are actually running on somewhat clean energy here (if you are not assuming we could sell that energy abroad if we didn't use electric cars). On top of that Norway is one of the richest countries in the world (ironically mainly due to oil and gas). Meaning most Norwegians could easily "sacrifice" some material goods and still be far better off than most people on this planet. So are we? Electric cars are heavily subsidized and whenever some benefit is taken away there is an outcry among our local "priests" fearing that people will then stop buying them. Why? Do we not believe in "science"?

Yes, I completely agree with this. The very large majority of people seem to be selfish or weak. We should all ask ourselves "Am I doing enough ?" In my case (though I hope I'm not seen as a preacher) I freely admit I'm not.. I think this doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion. But other opinions should be respected off course.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:13 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:43 pm
Pemba wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:40 pm
Almost 200 pages now.. This topic can be summarized by one side saying "people are causing climate change" and the other side saying "there is no proof of that". Repeat, repeat. Question would be are the indications strong enough for us to "do something" or not.
Those seem to be the two sides as definded by those buying into the global warming narrative. But that explanation is very much wrong.

The reality is that most of the skeptics out there see the real issues as being deeper than that such as:

1. Legislation/mandates in the west creating huge profits for corporations via subsidies being sold as a way to create jobs and continue the "growth". All the while "growth" is the problem we should be fixing.

2. International agreements that specifically weaken the west, and strengthen the 2nd and 3rd world. This eventually leads to point where there is 100% surety that the west will no longer have any say in enviormental (or human rights) policy globally in the future. And it is also clear that the 2nd and 3rd world will not think or act as kindly to the earth with respect to the global enviorment as the west has.

3. The enviormental destruction caused by the supposed solution (wind, solar, biomass) to the supposed fossil fuel problem - having the potential to be more of an environmental disaster than what it is there to fix.


So no, it is not that as simple as the AGW narrative you have bought into. I would suggest you watch "Planet Of The Humans".



Very good film, but the real eye opener is the attacks the creators have suffered by those who have seen it as an attack on thier sacred enviormental narrative of AGW. Even more interesting is how the large corporations, whose profit and growth stems from the subsidies which the AGW narrative supports, are actually "in bed with" nearly all leaders of the enviormental movement for the purpose of profit.
Why so condescending/patronizing all the time Matteo ?

Although you seem to be calling my summary of this topic "very much wrong" you're not pointing out why or what about it is wrong. Just adding to the "there is no proof of that" side of the argument (which I am not refuting by the way).

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:38 am

SimonP wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:35 pm
Except its not actually a question anymore. It is almost certain that 50% of the observed warming is anthropogenic in cause. It is highly likely that more than 100% of the observed warming is anthropogenic. Temperatures will rise 1 - 3°C by the end of the century depending upon future greenhouse gas emissions. The cost of doing nothing has been shown in numerous studies to exceed the cost/opportunity of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. That is why every country in the world signed the Paris Agreement, which requires every country to meet individual target goals.
That would be a scientific debate and I'm really not qualified or probably able to quantify what the likelihood of AGW is. I believe it because the majority of scientists appear to think it is so. And as you say, the cost of doing nothing seems to be so high that even a likelihood of 50% or even less makes it worth "acting". But that doesn't invalidate some of Matteo's, Havre's and other comments.


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