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climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

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Pemba
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:13 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:56 pm
palmbeacher wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:29 am
And leaving the Paris Climate agreement helps to reduce carbon emissions... how? Your argumentation is so overly simplistic and clearly also has been manipulated by Trump and Fox (China!).
It helps by not giving those in power in second and third world countries a chance to continue along the environmentally destructive path which they have been on. Regardless of whether or not it solves the problem, it does stop it from becoming unsolvable in the future. This is a very realistic assumption in that these second and third world countries have shown no regard for the environment in the past, present, and with future policies, other than with promises that they are not held it to by any real consequences.
I agree with you that second and third world countries have shown no regard for the environment so far. But can you clarify how leaving the Paris Agreement would change that ?

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:57 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:18 pm
Havre wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:32 am
It would be a good question to ask Matteo V what is the alternative? I completely agree with his point that if the "west" agrees to voluntarily slow growth then you are exposing yourself to someone else getting stronger. I don't see how that isn't valid, even if you believe in climate change that should be a concern, but how do you get the best of both by moving out of Paris?

Not that I believe Paris will ever be meaningful for anything else than as a symbol of unity (which isn't necessarily even a good thing when you just fuel the kind of moralizing you see in this thread).
First off, it does stop the virtue signaling that is a persistent cancer in the environmental movement. When those who are most passionate about solving an issue, wind up being the ones who make the problem worse, we gain much by stopping their worthless or harmful actions.

Next, real action should be taken with regard to rewarding population reduction in countries where it is naturally taking place. Growth, as a supported policy, should be abandoned for sustainability and eventual reduction. Both of these policies rely first on changing the banking system to where growth is no longer required for prosperity. And this is likely the one true insurmountable task that must be achieved, because of sheer opposition from those in control of the current banking system.

And finally, the absurd environmental policy of "not in my backyard", should be ended. Products for consumption in the West, which would be much more expensive if they were produced in the West due to environmental restrictions existing in the West, should still be produced at that higher cost in the West. We need to end outsourcing our pollution to second and third world countries. No longer should the West enjoy a lifestyle of relatively pollution-free land, water, and air, while those in second and third world countries are choking on the pollution that supports our lifestyles.



So there are your solutions. Intelligent environmentalist are well aware that the above are the only real actions that will have any meaning or bearing on our future. They also know, given the stupidity, gullibility, and greed, of everyone from your average person to the leaders of countries, implementation of all of these would be an insurmountable task.

So why not just sell you some solar panels made in China? And then mandate that you pay more for your wind generated electricity which supports large subsidy taking corporations. All the while getting you worked up about something that isn't even enough of a problem in comparison to the reality that we are facing. Then have a meeting of those world leaders and create some piece of paper to pacify, or even create division, as a distraction from the fact that those world leaders would still continue to live the same lavish Lifestyles regardless of any agreement.

Anyone care to claim that that is an inaccurate assessment of the situation???
I can get along very well with most of your assessment of the situation, including the conclusion that implementation of your solutions would be an insurmountable task unfortunately. So you haven't really offered any practical solutions. By saying "All the while getting you worked up about something that isn't even enough of a problem in comparison to the reality that we are facing" I think you assume either that AGW is not real or that it's consequences are not very bad. Obviously reading your posts this is what you believe. But can you prove that ? I assume it can't be proved either. So I continue to believe that AGW is real and the consequences are negative in terms of biodiversity and more. This is because the majority of scientists seems to believe that. But I admit, they might be exaggerating the problem or they might be trying to fool us all because of unknown sinister (or not so sinister) stuff going on. It is possible. Bit like Dr. (or should we call him saint) Fauci really. I'm also concerned that things like the Paris agreement are not going to be enough to address the issues and it might actually be a bad thing because it makes us all feel a bit morally superior, as if we're doing something (enough..) while others aren't.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Pemba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:13 am
I agree with you that second and third world countries have shown no regard for the environment so far. But can you clarify how leaving the Paris Agreement would change that ?
The Paris agreement immediately requires the West to institute crippling environmental policy. Fortunately, or rather depressingly, we have seen what this exact thing has done in the past. Production and even consumption, is moved from the West to the second and third world under these terms. When production and consumption is forced by Western policy, to be moved second and third world countries, pollution of all manners expands much more so than if that production and consumption was kept in the West.

On top of that, as those second and third world countries gain economic and political power from their success (transferred from what would have been Western economic prosperity), environmental policies typically do not follow along with Western policies in those second and third world countries. And given that the Paris agreement would requires the West to implement these policies immediately, but the second and third world does not need to do anything for some time, you're betting your future on the second and third world having a change of heart.

I am simply not a fan of making a large wager with poor odds of success. And as others have pointed out, pacifying the environmental movement with something that is so weak and at the same time flawed, is more harmful to the environmental movement then doing nothing.

And there is a very good reason why the second and third world countries of this planet are happy with this agreement. Besides having no consequences for not following it, it disadvantages the West so that the second and third world can more effectively compete and gain power to challenge the West. And once the West is no longer setting environmental policy, what will the overall Environmental Policy of the planet look like? Dictators, ideologies, and countries just able to exploit their environments to feed ever-growing populations, certainly do not have a good track record of environmentally conscious decisions and policies.
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Matteo V
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:54 pm

Pemba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:57 am
So you haven't really offered any practical solutions.
Stop digging! That is always the first step.



Pemba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:57 am
By saying "All the while getting you worked up about something that isn't even enough of a problem in comparison to the reality that we are facing" I think you assume either that AGW is not real or that it's consequences are not very bad. Obviously reading your posts this is what you believe. But can you prove that ? I assume it can't be proved either. So I continue to believe that AGW is real and the consequences are negative in terms of biodiversity and more. This is because the majority of scientists seems to believe that.
Warming, whether anthropogenic or natural, is more of a benefit to humanity in the increasing carrying capacity of Earth. The proof of this is the undeniable fact that a cooling climate on earth is detrimental to the carrying capacity of Earth. If you can find someone that says otherwise, you will find that they have no grounds upon which to base that assumption. There is no scientific evidence that a cooling climate will have more rainfall and more arable land. And all scientific evidence shows that increasing temperatures will increase the amount of arable land on the Earth. A cooling climate also sees an extension of the polar regions where biodiversity is much less than closer to the Equator.

The AGW scientific Community has shown a definite bias toward selling their narrative - to the point of ignoring contrary data, and even falsifying data to prove their narrative true. This is also fact. If you want to believe what someone wants you to believe who has an agenda for you believing that, and has demonstrated their bias and agenda, then you might be....... well, disappointed in the overall outcome.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby slide » Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:24 pm

how is this warming good to humanity , you call it a benefit - explain please , and where do you see a cooling climate , explain that too

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby palmbeacher » Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:29 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:54 pm
Pemba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:57 am
So you haven't really offered any practical solutions.
Stop digging! That is always the first step.



Pemba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:57 am
By saying "All the while getting you worked up about something that isn't even enough of a problem in comparison to the reality that we are facing" I think you assume either that AGW is not real or that it's consequences are not very bad. Obviously reading your posts this is what you believe. But can you prove that ? I assume it can't be proved either. So I continue to believe that AGW is real and the consequences are negative in terms of biodiversity and more. This is because the majority of scientists seems to believe that.
Warming, whether anthropogenic or natural, is more of a benefit to humanity in the increasing carrying capacity of Earth. The proof of this is the undeniable fact that a cooling climate on earth is detrimental to the carrying capacity of Earth. If you can find someone that says otherwise, you will find that they have no grounds upon which to base that assumption. There is no scientific evidence that a cooling climate will have more rainfall and more arable land. And all scientific evidence shows that increasing temperatures will increase the amount of arable land on the Earth. A cooling climate also sees an extension of the polar regions where biodiversity is much less than closer to the Equator.

The AGW scientific Community has shown a definite bias toward selling their narrative - to the point of ignoring contrary data, and even falsifying data to prove their narrative true. This is also fact. If you want to believe what someone wants you to believe who has an agenda for you believing that, and has demonstrated their bias and agenda, then you might be....... well, disappointed in the overall outcome.
1.5 degrees warming kills 90% of coral reefs. How is that a good thing?

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby tegirinenashi » Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:07 pm

palmbeacher wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:29 pm

1.5 degrees warming kills 90% of coral reefs. How is that a good thing?
Demonstrably false. Red Sea is often cited as a model environment for warmer world. It has thriving coral population. Let me repeat: relatively puny area (compared to Great Barrier Reef) features coral diversity approaching, or even exceeding the famous contender.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:24 am

palmbeacher wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:29 pm
1.5 degrees warming kills 90% of coral reefs. How is that a good thing?
Hilarious! The last time the Earth was 3 degrees warmer, apparently it made all of the coral extinct? Maybe "moon men" brought the coral back after having saved it to be replanted in the earth's oceans?

Palmy, I think you're losing touch with reality. If the Earth's ecosystems were that sensitive to climate change, there wouldn't be any ecosystems left given the climate change that has happened in the last billion years.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:38 am

slide wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:24 pm
how is this warming good to humanity , you call it a benefit - explain please , and where do you see a cooling climate , explain that too
The benefit of warming is that humanity is capable of sustaining more people on the face of this Earth, without devastating the environment in humanities effort for survival.

Should the climate cool, and agricultural resources become scarce due to less rainfall and less arable land, Humanity would kill everything in it's quest for survival. There would likely be some insect species that would go extinct because we would decimate them as a quick food source. The oceans would be stripped of pretty much all sustainable fisheries. And if you go for the emotional side, it would also be the end of all whale species as half the crew of The Sea Shepherd wood choose suicide, and the other half would start eating whale shortly after the remaining crew became emaciated. On top of that, in the pursuit of every food resource available to feed those starving people, no regard would be given to the environmental damage in that endeavor. Cleanup of oil spills, toxic waste, nuclear waste, recycling, are all out the window as every effort is put into survival in a game that all the players know ends in most starving anyway.

This is a very important article that you need to read.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 1076835446

Regardless of whether or not anthropogenic climate change is a significant factor in the earth warming, we had better hope it continues to warm until we reign in the population problem on this Earth. But the key takeaway from this is that the population problem to which I refer, is not a problem so long as the climate is warming. Therefore, any means by which warming happens while human beings are still too irresponsible to control the human population, gives us a little bit of time to figure this one out. And pretty much without any debate, it is 99.9% expected that a starving population of humanity will do much more destruction to ecosystems, and the pollution problem on this planet will get much worse, then we could ever do from emitting additional CO2 in a warming environment.

CO2 emissions are as much of a problem as a stubbed toe. However, global cooling is a large-caliber bullet speeding to us from somewhere at some distance that we are unsure of. Which problem should we really focus on?

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Trent hink » Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:05 am

The scientific evidence suggests that a system with more energy will have more frequent extreme weather events. If your argument is that this will benefit agriculture, perhaps you have not considered the real impacts this might possibly have.


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