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chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

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joriws
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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby joriws » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:37 am

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:25 pm
joriws wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:40 pm
total bridle per kite 394m
This is grossly incorrect, real value is something like 160m. I added up B line row which is a bit under 20m per side, so whole kite is about 8x of that.
I also suspected that 400m figure but I was hurry leaving the office and rechecked today with my excel. Probably matrix type of sum did something weird "sum(d2:ba10)", don't know. I re-opened up excel sheet I did and I calculated first total length per bridle type (row-sum) and now I got 197m total bridle. And this is from "cutting lenght" column from Soul-15m line plan because bridle weight was estimated.

Some bridles are DC 201 but I used DC 200 value. But as it was stated that weight were real weights I did not want use my time to fix..

ref weight [g/m] total mass in kite [g] tot bridles of type [mm]
DC 60 0,24 2,20776 9199
DC 100 0,42 10,8045 25725
DC 160 0,87 30,87195 35485
DC 200 1,42 34,3214 24170
DC 300 2,01 2,814 1400
DC 500 2,73 7,0707 2590
total per side 88,09031 98569
total per kite 176,18062 197138

Refs I used:
* lineplane: https://flysurfer.com/files/dlm_uploads ... _LP-15.pdf
* liros brochure for g/m: https://www.liros.com/userdata/files/LI ... ow_res.pdf

kitexpert
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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby kitexpert » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:26 am

foilholio wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:28 am
Source for your bridle expertise? And you are certain it won't affect PA change?... :roll:
Like I've told I've worked with these for last 15 years, made hundreds of kite designs and dozens of completed kites and modifications. So I guess I have learned something during that time. I'm afraid there is no kite design schools, you just have to learn it by yourself. In general I like how foil kite bridles have developed, I don't have anywhere near as much to complain about them as say ten years ago. However there is still some kites which are quite primitive or sloppy designs, for me it seems just that bridle optimization is left undone. I guess they just don't care.

However it is true best possible bridle can give only slight edge to some working bridle in how kite performs (if latter isn't very bad design). Achieved improvement in drag and weight is usually not very significant. Still better is better and it also saves some costs and makes kite look a bit cleaner and probably decreases tangles.

PA change is more like yesterdays thing, I don't care it (it is also complex to control and it has its own quirks). For example Soul: does it have it? I haven't seen any pictures in which it could be seen, FS don't give % values of it, (most) other foil kites don't even claim to have it. Soul canopy curve is quite different to P4, especially wingtips are much flatter - so how they even could turn downwards? Modern ideal for (mid AR) foil kites (Soul, Nova, Hyperlink) is more like LEI kite feel: better bar feedback, more solid canopy; these are quite opposite to what big PA change kite has.

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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby tomtom » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:33 pm

Little bit Off topic.

Question for experts. You like Soul a lot and to quote you is more like LEI kite feel: better bar feedback, more solid canopy - FRS which is in your book inferior kite have much more of this than Soul. Soul is more solid more pull flyeis higher to edge but this feeling of be in control which LEI give you is just doesnt here. FRS size to size turns quicker - have better bar feedback inflight depower /not on edge/ works just much better. Ideal kite in my book will have soul performance and FRS handling. It is even possible?
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kitexpert
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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby kitexpert » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:43 pm

tomtom wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:33 pm
Little bit Off topic.

Question for experts. You like Soul a lot and to quote you is more like LEI kite feel: better bar feedback, more solid canopy - FRS which is in your book inferior kite have much more of this than Soul. Soul is more solid more pull flyeis higher to edge but this feeling of be in control which LEI give you is just doesnt here. FRS size to size turns quicker - have better bar feedback inflight depower /not on edge/ works just much better. Ideal kite in my book will have soul performance and FRS handling. It is even possible?
Hard to say what is possible, but you can't have all. At the edge of WW foil kites are most inferior in handling compared to LEI's, but they also fly further to the edge.

I've never used FRS but I know they have made them for a long time and kite also looks decent. It has quite a lot canopy curve and wide wingtip, in general this should make turning faster and also give good bar feedback and solid turns. Perhaps Soul handling could be improved but then very probably some other things would suffer, like if you have more canopy curve you have less PA. It is all about making best possible compromises and Soul has succeeded in it very well IMO. Technically and in detail level Soul much more complex and advanced kite than FRS, Nova or Hyperlink.

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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby dave1986 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:22 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:43 pm
Technically and in detail level Soul much more complex and advanced kite than FRS, Nova or Hyperlink.
You failed to mention the Chrono V3 in your comment above. Do you have any opinion about the Soul compared with the Chrono V3 when it comes to all-around performance?

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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby fernmanus » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:15 am

I have flown both kites back to back. I personally prefer the Soul. It has more range, it is more stable, and I like how it turns better. The difference between the kites is most noticeable in gusty conditions or on the extreme ends of the wind range. The Soul may be heavier than the Chrono 3 UL, but it performs better in light winds. I suspect that has to do with how airtight the Soul is compared to the Chrono 3, there is less deformation in the lulls. On the opposite end, the Soul has a higher range and is more manageable in higher winds.

Both kite are excellent jumpers and are great for gliding. Both are high quality kites, if possible fly demo both before buying.
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fernmanus
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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby fernmanus » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:15 am

RomeUtah,

I also live in Utah. If you want to try the Soul send me a PM.

Kenny
Last edited by fernmanus on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

kitexpert
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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby kitexpert » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:26 am

Very good answer from fernmanus. Chrono has more cells and AFAIK bit higher AR than Soul, but in general they are kites of same segment, high performance mid AR foil kites. On snow you can reach much higher upwind angles and get much more hang time with them than with any LEI kite. I only know first version of Chrono but it is not at all same kite as these later ones.

I have no reason to doubt Chrono V3 is an excellent kite: it looks good, it has remarkable specs and good design. Bridle of Chrono V3 is quite complex because of the high cell count and chosen inner structure, cascading is perhaps not perfect but it is acceptable. Two highest levels of the bridle have same line lengths for different line rows (except brakes of course), this makes checking them simple by just comparing them to each other. There is some weird bridle lines but it is quite normal, perhaps designer just got tired working with different cell counts :)

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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby RomeUtah » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 pm

Ended up getting a 15m soul, any tips on set up, or should I scroll through the forums? Should I buy the break line that goes against the rear line like on OZ bars. Im glad someone went into detail on the line dimensions, that went so far over my head and off topic

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Re: chrono v3 vs soul 15m for snow

Postby Adventure Logs » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:57 am

RomeUtah wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 pm
Ended up getting a 15m soul, any tips on set up, or should I scroll through the forums? Should I buy the break line that goes against the rear line like on OZ bars. Im glad someone went into detail on the line dimensions, that went so far over my head and off topic
What kind of tips are you looking for? If it's new, just pull it out of the bag, connect the bar and go. Give yourself a good 5-10 hours of break in period for line lengths to to settle. The rear brake line is personal taste. I've used both a brake line and steering line balls and I prefer the balls, it gives more control and is useful on the water as well. Also just something else that can get tangled up. I really missed my 15m. It still holds the highest Woo jump for me but since I hydrofoil more than anything else nowadays, I just didn't use it that much. Enjoy!

=Jason-


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