Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Forum for snow- and landkiters
plummet
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6653
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Local Beach: EE
Favorite Beaches: NZ
Style: Terrain riding
Gear: Old wornout ozone.
Plummet hydrofoil and mutant
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Postby plummet » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:11 am

foilholio wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:39 am
plummet wrote: There is no foil kite that I have seen or have ridden that's as good as a lei in those turbelent rotor, downwind, downslope in the wind shadow of a dune conditions. None!
While I agree with you, have you ridden the Psycho4? I have seen tube kites that are worse than foils and then also people can pilot a foil to be better than a tube.
plummet wrote: I quite often slack line the kite on purpose, run towards it so the lines are literally falling on the ground to get down and around a feature in. The lei will start dropping out of the sky and all you have to do is tension the top steering line before the kite hits the deck and it will snap back and you can carry on riding,
I do this on the water all the time riding waves, it is the mainstay of surfing with a kite :-). A foil kite directly over head will drift back still flying never turning to the ground, some tubes will do this but can still on occasion turn to the ground. Foils even if they collapse will still float. Partial collapses can be easy to recover. A big difference between a tube and foil recovering from slack lines is a tube has instant power and a foil does not. It has benefits and negatives.

No I havent seen let alone ridden the new physco 4. No doubt it is glorious. But you can't get around physics. Soft shell kites, be it single skin, closed or open sell will all collapse to a potentially unrecoverable state in the wrong conditions.

DTL the line drifting as you describe being the mainstay or surfing is easy and does not fully slack line the kites by comparison to down slope, down wind, wind shadow, tubelent rotor conditions kite buggy riding (or i assume down slope down wind snow kiting). Many kites can drift in the waves. This easy as. Also wind on the beach in the waves is typically cleanish and coming from a similar direction even if its gusty. In the hills there are all sorts of wind angles, rotor, dead spots, wind bending around hills extra line upslop and decreased lift downlope. Its harder to a factor of 5 to 1 I reckon.

So..... something that works in the relatively easy service of dtl wave riding may fail not work as well in the dunes/mountains. That said, Wave kites generally make the best dune kites because they have been designed to drifting and stability.

Being a mean bastard I designed a buggy dune race that had all the crazy ass conditions I describe. In that race was all forms of kites from single skin to fixed bridle to race closed foils even a C quad and an arc. I raced against guys with 3 x my buggy and dune experience. They are very good dune racers and have been riding dunes since before kitesurfing was invented!.... Anyway, I lapped the entire field. Some twice in the 5 lap race. I put it down in part to the fact that the lei was superior for than nasty course to all other kites in that race.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Postby Matteo V » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:40 am

plummet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:11 am
[Anyway, I lapped the entire field. Some twice in the 5 lap race. I put it down in part to the fact that the lei was superior for than nasty course to all other kites in that race.
Foil kites, even single skins, stay up for longer than inflatables when the wind goes to zero. Closed cell foils, are the best at it because they displace and hold onto that air, giving them " zero wind displacement". Think of it as an inflated birthday balloon vs an uninflated one. When both are dropped from height, which one falls faster.

Inflatables have a heavy inflated leading edge that acts like a weight, and causes them to "hindenburg" in ways that foils are resistant to. Think of an inflatable as a birthday balloon the same weight as another fully inflated balloon, but made so strong that it stays the uninflated size even if you put the same ammount of air in it (higher pressure).

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3429
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 227 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Postby foilholio » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:47 pm

And then enter in hot air balloon effects.. ultralight foil kites can slack line drift well even in 6-7knots and maybe less.
plummet wrote: No I havent seen let alone ridden the new physco 4. No doubt it is glorious.
It is pretty good, I wouldn't say glorious, much better after a few modifications and would be even better made new with more changes. It is a perplexing kite, it has many faces and it's behaviour changes quite a lot depending how it is tuned or what state it is in, from changes to the fabric etc from ageing I guess.
plummet wrote: But you can't get around physics. Soft shell kites, be it single skin, closed or open sell will all collapse to a potentially unrecoverable state in the wrong conditions.
Most certainly you can not escape physics! and double skin foils have some advantages for drifting on slack lines. They can actually hold their shape ok if closer to directly overhead. They can also do it in the side if they are coxed. But this is more from a specific kite the Psycho4 and when it is setup to drift best, i.e. with tips that collapse more. Their is not really many foils that compare well to it for this behavior. It is practically the most stable foil you will find depowered and in gusty conditions.
plummet wrote: DTL the line drifting as you describe being the mainstay or surfing is easy and does not fully slack line the kites by comparison to down slope, down wind, wind shadow, tubelent rotor conditions kite buggy riding (or i assume down slope down wind snow kiting).
Easy and doesn't fully slack the lines? What planet are you on. Have you tried it in 5 knots? You are telling this to someone who has ridden through front lines on many occasions, gotten out of the lines while the kite was still flying/floating... Ridden past kites till they were 10-15m upwind and had them drift back past while still floating, to then regain tension and continue flying. Ridden past kites and crashed them upwind with tension in the lines. Ridden waves till the apparent wind reverses direction and flown kites in the opposite window! Ridden waves while slackening the lines for 10,20,even 30 seconds in one entire period. Ridden 500m waves with endless repetition of slack line for 5-8seconds with cut backs, proper cutbacks over and over the type of thing that tube kiters would always winge is impossible.... all while on kites that could jump the f*** over most any tube kite and smash them for upwind. And that's not comparing to "wave" bs tube kites. Oh and what do you think 10 or 20m waves do to the wind? they kill it.
plummet wrote:Many kites can drift in the waves
Many kites pull downwind like dogs or what they believe is drift, few kites release line tension and float like hot air balloons.
plummet wrote: So..... something that works in the relatively easy service of dtl wave riding may fail not work as well in the dunes/mountains. That said, Wave kites generally make the best dune kites because they have been designed to drifting and stability.
I am not disagreeing that tubes are more stable or handle gusts more solidly. They maybe with some dihedral could even be the ultimate slack line kites. I have though yet to see a tube handle slack lines as well in as little wind as the best foil kites. Aluula may change that, but you make a foil kite out of 10g/m2 fabric and I can almost guarantee it will have positive static lift when it gets hot, especially if you make it fat enough.

MartinO
Rare Poster
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:28 am
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: South Sweden
Favorite Beaches: Grönhögen, Sweden
Style: Freeride
Gear: Naish Pivot, Blade Trigger, Flysurfer Peak4 kites
RRD and Liquid Force boards
Slingshot Hydrofoil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Postby MartinO » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:02 pm

Thanks for some great advice from several of you. I will give the kite some more time and try to shorten the back lines and see if that helps. I have plenty of tuning knots on my bar so it will be an easy task. I´d better try it in a bit less wind than last time, however. I tried last time to fly it basically on the front lines only and it felt that I got like 80-90% of power anyway. Retro-feel like my Slingshot Fuel 2001 that was my first water kite :) I guess I need some re-learning to get the foil kite to fly well. If not, I might sell it and get a Flysurfer Peak instead. It seems like many find that to be more LEI-like in terms of depower, even if it probably has the same collapse-behavior in some conditions.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Postby Matteo V » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:20 pm

MartinO wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:02 pm
Retro-feel like my Slingshot Fuel 2001 that was my first water kite :) I guess I need some re-learning to get the foil kite to fly well. If not, I might sell it and get a Flysurfer Peak instead. It seems like many find that to be more LEI-like in terms of depower, even if it probably has the same collapse-behavior in some conditions.
Yep, that's the Apex all right. Personally I think the most desirable foil on the market for stability and beginners is the old ozone access. Where do you kite on the snow?

MartinO
Rare Poster
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:28 am
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: South Sweden
Favorite Beaches: Grönhögen, Sweden
Style: Freeride
Gear: Naish Pivot, Blade Trigger, Flysurfer Peak4 kites
RRD and Liquid Force boards
Slingshot Hydrofoil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Where to go for more LEI-like depower?

Postby MartinO » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:39 am

Matteo V wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:20 pm
Yep, that's the Apex all right. Personally I think the most desirable foil on the market for stability and beginners is the old ozone access. Where do you kite on the snow?
Sounds like I need to bring out my early day skills then :)

I kite on frozen lakes around my home (when we have normal winters here in southern Sweden), in the southern part of the Scandinavian mountains and rarely in the alps. The Apex kite is supposed to be a ski touring kite to access ski touring terrain or in some cases uphill climbing.


Return to “Snow / Land”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests