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Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

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Chrisk7
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Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby Chrisk7 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:04 am

I've been bitten by the bug after a weekend stunt kiting on the Oregon coast with my son. I've been studying as much as I can watching videos, forums etc. I've searched several times and really couldn't find these questions I have. So here it goes and hopefully someone has some info for me.

I'm 52, fairly good shape, 6ft 198 lbs and I've been practicing with a Prism 250mm dual line kite with a handle.

I would like to get into the real thing for things like buggies, snow boarding/skiing, maybe land boarding, and possibly kite boarding on the water.

I understand the differences in the open/closed cell, and LEI kites but after several months of studying up I am still unsure of what kite, bar, and harness would best suit me.

In my area around the NW I'm thinking that the winds would usually be in the light to maybe 25 mph range.

I'm thinking about a closed cell kite for maybe water usage when I get better with it on land.

I'm thinking of something in the 8 to 12 meter size depending on the specific kite but I'm not sure.

The kites I looked at so far are these:

HQ4 Apex 8M with 55" bar

HQ4 Empulse 7M with 55" bar

Flysurfer Soul, unsure of size and bar.

I'm not sure if these kites would be good for both land and water.

Any suggestions for a kite, bar, harness mainly for land use but hopefully venturing into water when I get better.
I'm under the impression that water takes a bit more power or kite size.
Thanks for any tips, suggestions, or info.

Chris

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby Dave_5280 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:13 am

Take lessons and get Fat Sands dvd video for beginners.

I would prefer a LEI to stay away from the complex bridles of foil kites and tangles, 9m, 12m, 15m, with a seat harness. Maybe a local brand for good support - Ocean Rodeo or Slingshot.

Land kiting on skis or snowboard depending on what you are comfortable on, can get you used to flying bigger kites without having to deal with and learn everything that happens on water.

Welcome to the sport!

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby Aberdovy kiter » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:04 am

I started on a fixed bridle 5.5m flexifoil blade, landboarding, then bought a couple of depower ozones, but then i discovered lei's and never looked back, on wet uk snow, beach and water, the only problem with lei's and snow is if your using the kite as a drag lift and then ski/snowboarding back down pack down etc, for doing that i used a 8m ozone access easy pack down and relauch, amazing the bridles never got tangled, hope that makes sense...

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby Matteo V » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:12 am

Chrisk7 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:04 am
..... and I've been practicing with a Prism 250mm dual line kite with a handle.

I would like to get into the real thing for things like buggies, snow boarding/skiing, maybe land boarding, and possibly kite boarding on the water.

In my area around the NW I'm thinking that the winds would usually be in the light to maybe 25 mph range.

I'm thinking of something in the 8 to 12 meter size depending on the specific kite but I'm not sure.
That is a huge step up in size and power without professional instruction. A 4m kite in 25mph winds is enough to get you pretty mangled up on a bad gust or beginner mistake on land.



Chrisk7 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:04 am
The kites I looked at so far are these:

HQ4 Apex 8M with 55" bar

HQ4 Empulse 7M with 55" bar

Flysurfer Soul, unsure of size and bar.

I'm not sure if these kites would be good for both land and water.
I am a huge advocate of foil kites, and use them exclusively on snow. But most modern inflatables are better in control and handling above 20mph. I would steer clear of foils in those sizes. I also use 2007-2013 HQ kites back from when they were the best in some models. The apex was not one I would reccomend.

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby Herman » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:52 am

If money is no object then get a depower foil. If you want to buggy on a budget a good start would be a 4m fixed bridle on handles, assuming decent ground. It has the added advantage of teaching you to control backstall. Buggy requires least power as their rolling resistance is low due to big wheels. Something like a hq Beamer.

If you want to start with landboarding a 2 or 3 line 3m fixed bridle and bar is the cheap option but you will need a little more wind. It will get you started and enable you to get used to the venue's and meet the local riders. That sort of kite is often sold as a kitesurf trainer.

Add a harness line to the handles or bar once you have gained a bit of experience. Unless you have related board skills I suggest you go the buggy route as the safer option. All terrain depower foils are expensive and a little fragile ; not the sensible way to go for a beginner imho!

Single skins such as Peaks would also be a good alternative for both land boarding and buggy. If I was starting all over again with deep pockets I would probably go that way!

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby tomato » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:01 pm

I have started on snow with re-worked and trimmed paraglider on handles. would not reccomend handles to start on snowboard or skis. In your place i would buy used LEI 7-9 meters and would ride in light to medium winds. Snow does not require a lot of power, because if you stop due to lack of power- no sinking :) If you going to ride on packed snow- get 5-7m kite if powder-8-10m. In case there is a lake- get skates and 4-5m kite that is a lot of fun. Small LEI kites are not used much if you buy used- can get very good deal and spare money for lessons on water in the future.

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby Herman » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:21 pm

Tomato’s advice is also a good workable option. Might come down to simply deciding whether you want to have the smaller pack down and ease of downwind launch of the foil/single skin. You can learn a lot from a small LEI which would be helpful if you progress to water. It is all good fun. Even an old small C kite can be a viable option for light wind, rig a 5th and have a decent chicken loop if you do this!

PS. If you want to land board and buggy go for bar rather than handles, 3 line fixed bridle gives you the ability to reverse launch and backstall land. 2 line is generally a flag out style of landing and reride on 2 lines is limited after landing or a crash.
Last edited by Herman on Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby joriws » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm

I'd stay away from LEIs, they bring leaking problems. Nothing more frustrating than you finally have time and want to ride and your kite gets soft.

You could start simple and this is how I recommend. Take a Peak4 kite for example 5m in size, very durable and flies in a puff maybe 2-3mph and also in bad turbulence like for kite club test I flew downwind of trees to demo real world stability. It is dirt cheap. Does not product much lift as terms of jumping, so it would be the safest option to train power kiting with your son. It hauls you on described elements with safety and gentle force with buggy, mountainboard, longboard, snowboard or even bicycle etc. Packs down very small and light for ski touring.

From there you can continue to water, if interested. For water the Peak4 is not the number one kite (but it works fantastic with hydrofoil board with best drift on the kite market). For general water usage with twintip- or surfboards I'd recommend something else. With Peak4 you'd see how easy foil kites are and bridles are nothing to worry. But you'd go in every direction, closed cell foil kite (like the Soul you mentioned) or LEI.

Check for example Lolo BSD-user from Youtube, very talented multi-surface rider. He is a team rider which naturally affect the selection of gear he uses. But for use case you described he does the same elements, that's why I suggest to check his "marketing" and his preferred gear from all factory gear line-up.

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby dice » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:20 pm

joriws wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm
I'd stay away from LEIs, they bring leaking problems. Nothing more frustrating than you finally have time and want to ride and your kite gets soft.
It happens, but I would not use this as an argument to not use LEI.
Or at least not as only reason.

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Re: Newbie questions getting started on land and then water?

Postby joriws » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:49 pm

dice wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:20 pm
joriws wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm
I'd stay away from LEIs, they bring leaking problems. Nothing more frustrating than you finally have time and want to ride and your kite gets soft.
It happens, but I would not use this as an argument to not use LEI.
Or at least not as only reason.
Absolutely correct, but that is the biggest frustration among my friends and me on everyday kiting life. Friends cannot kite because their kite for the wind is not in shape like leaky center strut, or not enough wind for them to kite but for me is and I am 20-30kg heavier than they are. My max 12 times used Ozone Edge developed a leak, broken one pump "cup", bladder to hose adapter. Kite has never flapped on the beach for long periods like pump in the morning, wrong size, pump another and kite flaps on beach for 6 hours also flapping one-pump-system. Very hard to fix those one-pump cups, kite starts collapsing, fabric starts wearing due to collapses, soon bladder will burst out as pressure seeks weakest point in structure giving fabric. Stitches are wearing from LE and kite has not been flapping. Maybe once self landed to sandy beach and self-launched. I self-launch by drifting from water, I could do it from sand but never did due to sanding of fabric and stitches.

Some other reasons what comes quickly to my mind..
Crash LEI hard even in lowish winds and kite can split TE to LE. Breaking 1m/3ft waves can split the kite as wave goes above bladder, wave nails kite down and rest of wave hits the canopy with force and if you are still attached to kite.... LEI can even burst mid-air in high load (well used kite usually) due to stress points developing for example with mid-air folding due to high stress like loading the kite for jump.

In light wind LEI are usually too front-heavy and hindenburg down in wind lulls. Catch some water on top of tube and you'll have hard time relaunching kite in light winds. In light winds they are powerless so you cannot kite on your *schedule*, but more on mother nature schedule, like waiting 13mph winds until you can water kite. Powder also requires power like water kiting.

Very unsafe *self* launches in high winds. Self-landing in twirly high mountain winds. 100% of kite deaths are with LEI kites AFAIK, sorry this was very cheap on my side due to market shares. But loss of control of LEI in high wind is very dangerous. Also death looping is more LEI problem as steering line can easily go over tip. Non-working safety on some bars with LEI kites only after few loops which happen very quickly and if you attached leash to your back, bon vouyage.

But in the end OP's question is not about above what I listed for Dice, but I think Dice indirectly asked more what I am thinking about problems.

In my opinion OP wants to have easy start with his son on *hard unforgiving surface* and I recommend checking Peak4 from various sources as it should be one of the safest option out there also to self learn, remember he knows how to fly stunt kite, so knows at least something about powerzone and steering a quickish agile kite. Peak4 is almost like a trainer kite but in winds pulls nicely and is predictive handling and very agile and fun to fly. I just mentioned about LEIs the biggest frustration when other people started recommending LEI talks but maybe I could have left it out.

OP thinks buggy, landboarding and snowkiting etc as first way of doing. OP is 52, and he thinks starting power kiting with most important person, a family member. Sure kiteboarding course is a good thing, but if you get a safe kite, and look&digest below 2h video you are already long way.



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