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Help power looping a 15m foil kite

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RomeUtah
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Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby RomeUtah » Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:19 am

Hey all,
I am trying to wrap my head around doing a powered loop on a 15m soul on snow. So i can get it almost all the way around but not high enough to catch me, im initiating about 15 to 20 feet off the ground with 18m lines, im in almost all the way and fishpoling the proverbial shit out of it. I had one awesome loop where I was higher than the entire kite, it made it all the way around with a good yank but did not catch me. Im going off the side of the hill, I may try on the 8m, the problem is the impact hurts a bit after a while :lol: :lol: :lol: , but the sensation is rad

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby Herman » Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:09 pm

There is a lot more to it than just pulling a hard fishpole which will probably stall half the kite.
Last edited by Herman on Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby joriws » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:00 pm

Have you checked LoloBSD videos from Youtube for tips? He glides a lot, also seems to use Soul (unknown size to me) a lot and lands with loops at least on videos I've seen. (Well many latest videos are with Peak4).

Like this one, 360(?) camera makes angles weird..

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby RomeUtah » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:18 pm

joriws wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:00 pm
Have you checked LoloBSD videos from Youtube for tips? He glides a lot, also seems to use Soul (unknown size to me) a lot and lands with loops at least on videos I've seen. (Well many latest videos are with Peak4).

Like this one, 360(?) camera makes angles weird..
yeah Ive watched his stuff and chatted with him minorly, he is flying a 12m soul most of the time (i dont have one) but he also does them from a glide really high in the air with a bit less room for air, thats why im doing on a side of a hill to get some extra height without actually being super high up. Ive landed a few glides with a loop but its more of cranking on the acceleration, then heavy on break, and as im pretty close to the ground crank the loop and still land as the kite is going back up(not sure if you can visualize it) I think I can get the 12m around... im just missing the 12 m soul :lol: :lol: . I can loop the 8m pretty well, and on the next 20knts day may mess around with back loop back rolls on the smaller kite. Lolo makes them look so smooth.
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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby joriws » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm

Just to think what you can do on the bars end, if kite does not catch you ie get above you to carry you weight. Only thing to do IMO is just sheet out to let kite fly faster and maybe because of less lift pendulum you less.

On some previous post I posted you the glide polar graph, let's continue that with theory first. You know the practice better than I do so please correct me if my theories are wrong:
* on highest yank of kiteloop wing loading is the highest and kite moves faster on same bar position due to high wing loading.
* after the yank you enter almost free fall phase with very little wing loading - this phase you need to have kite flying fast to catch you and you should sheet out to keep kite speed up to catch you. If you sheet in that is wrong way to do. You can see this also in many big air pilot view videos. Also if lines loose you lose because kite enters drifting mode instead of climbing up on your line tension.
* you sort of drop under the kite, and if kite is "lower" to the ground (hill side wall too) than lines are long you have a hit.
* when kite is back high enough and again wing loading increases you can start doing heliloops with more bar sheeting. Because the kite has catched you and your pendulum.
* on glide polar from top point you should not ever be on the left side of peak lift because kite slows down more but generates less lift. So sheet out to let kite fly faster.
* hill-side effects I cannot comment, naturally it turns then true wind vector upwards which changes affective AoA but that depends a lot on kite position on loop too. Maybe analysis of that is next in line..

Here is same glide polar with the effect of wing loading. So the polar is constantly changing on your line loading to lower right when wing loading increases.
Image
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RomeUtah (Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:46 pm)
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RomeUtah
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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby RomeUtah » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:52 pm

joriws wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm
Just to think what you can do on the bars end, if kite does not catch you ie get above you to carry you weight. Only thing to do IMO is just sheet out to let kite fly faster and maybe because of less lift pendulum you less.

On some previous post I posted you the glide polar graph, let's continue that with theory first. You know the practice better than I do so please correct me if my theories are wrong:
* on highest yank of kiteloop wing loading is the highest and kite moves faster on same bar position due to high wing loading.
* after the yank you enter almost free fall phase with very little wing loading - this phase you need to have kite flying fast to catch you and you should sheet out to keep kite speed up to catch you. If you sheet in that is wrong way to do. You can see this also in many big air pilot view videos. Also if lines loose you lose because kite enters drifting mode instead of climbing up on your line tension.
* you sort of drop under the kite, and if kite is "lower" to the ground (hill side wall too) than lines are long you have a hit.
* when kite is back high enough and again wing loading increases you can start doing heliloops with more bar sheeting. Because the kite has catched you and your pendulum.
* on glide polar from top point you should not ever be on the left side of peak lift because kite slows down more but generates less lift. So sheet out to let kite fly faster.
* hill-side effects I cannot comment, naturally it turns then true wind vector upwards which changes affective AoA but that depends a lot on kite position on loop too. Maybe analysis of that is next in line..

Here is same glide polar with the effect of wing loading. So the polar is constantly changing on your line loading to lower right when wing loading increases.
Image
I think i need to get in the habit of sheeting the bar out as the kite is heading back up, im focused so much on watching the kite and making sure i don't crater I forget the bar. The dynamics are different on the loop when I glide (much easier when the timing is right even when sheeted in). I was hoping i'm missing a bigger step, but I guess not.

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby mmargoli » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:54 pm

I had a 12m soul and almost always had to grab the foam back line cover to make it loop faster. fishpoling just wasn't enough.

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby Adventure Logs » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:22 am

You can help speed up the kite by making the rear lines up to 2cm shorter. Just check before hand that it’s not going to be too much and backstall the kite.

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby Skywalker7 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:45 am

You need to fly the 15M soul on the 60 cm bar for sure. 18m lines are very short. Basicaly the shorter your lines the loops will be more radical=megaloopish. You will need a little longer lines to give you less radical loops. Probably 20-21-22 meter will work well. Shortening the rear lines by 2-3 cm is good idea if your lines are totaly equal now. Should check before doing so. Shortening rear lines means narrower turns as the side of the kite gets closer to a stall point. You should watch for it and watch for the stall point as well when gliding.
However personnaly I dont think that flying with a kite is a wise idea. If I would do so I would definitely do it with a brand new bar, and I would rebuild the kite-harness connection to a fixed one. No chicken loop, no unrealible kite harness bullshit, where the harness hook can also break, etc.
Chicken is loop is definitely stupid for such actions. I just accidentaly release my chicken loop this year on water in a kiteloop. I just realized a few month later why it was.
In loop when you start turning you bar your hands tends toward the middle (location of the chicken loop) and in the loop you get a lot of power which could pull your hands up, and if you touch the chicken loop meanwhile then you got a release.
I am kitesurfing from 2001. Personnaly got 3 lines snap(takoon, North, Ozone), broke 3 harness hook(one times just the pin went broke) and also saw quite some bars broken.

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Re: Help power looping a 15m foil kite

Postby JTKiter » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:34 pm

(Wow, graphs! I have no idea what they mean but they look cool!)

Good to think about this stuff as carefully as we can.

Like others, I shorten the back lines by 2 or 3cm on all my kites. It means faster turning, faster initiation of the loop--which is key when trying to loop a big kite.
BUT (in my experience) if you don't let the bar out as the kite is coming through the bottom and starting back up, it will stall and/or stay low for too long.

There's no downside to shortening your back lines if you understand how to avoid backstalling when you don't want it. Sometimes you DO want it.... Obviously you can pull your trim line in if you're free-riding or whatever.

The technique of letting the bar out as the kite is coming up from the bottom of the loop is critical.

There's also rider weight. Or weight-to-kite size ratio. Let's say we're both gliding along on identical 15m kites but you weigh 60lbs more than I do. When you initiate a loop, the kite is going to behave differently than when I do the same thing.
(I am pretty scrawny, actually. I would never try looping my 18m Chrono when I'm off the ground. I don't have the mass to keep enough tension in the lines to make it turn fast enough no matter what I do at the bar--unless I'm way up. And that's risky! When I'm on the ground or snow, I can edge against the kite and make it turn. I'm fine looping my 13m off the ground, by contrast.)

Have fun, be safe, enjoy!


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