Forum for kitesurfers
-
tilmann
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 729
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:02 am
- Kiting since: 2000
- Local Beach: St.Peter-Ording
- Style: highspeedcarving
- Gear: highspeedcarving board + 7m Slingshot Machine
- Brand Affiliation: www.highspeedcarving.com
- Location: St.Peter-Ording, Germany
-
Has thanked:
3 times
-
Been thanked:
60 times
Postby tilmann » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:27 pm
could be interesting to make an experiment: If you reduce the diameter of a hose from 12 to 8 cm. How much PSI do you need to get the same amount of stiffness ?
-
nixmatters
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 971
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:38 pm
- Kiting since: 2009
- Style: freeride. started foiling, not there yet
- Gear: mostly custom made
- Brand Affiliation: None currently
-
Has thanked:
369 times
-
Been thanked:
247 times
Postby nixmatters » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:53 pm
tilmann wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:27 pm
could be interesting to make an experiment: If you reduce the diameter of a hose from 12 to 8 cm. How much PSI do you need to get the same amount of stiffness ?
Some food for thought here (files size over max limit):
Air-Inflated Fabric Structures, Naval Undersea Warfare Center Division, Newport, Rhode Island, 2006
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA458590
Technology and Mechanics Overview of Air-Inflated Fabric Structures, Naval Undersea Warfare Center Division, Newport, Rhode Island, 2006
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA462232
The second paper seems to be a shorter version of the first one
P.S. above links have been updated
-
Attachments
-
Last edited by
nixmatters on Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
grigorib
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
- Kiting since: 2009
- Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; Hood River; La Ventana; Ocean Park, PR; SPI; Tawas, MI
- Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, Turbine 9/13m, SST 4/5m, UFO 3/5/7/9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Flysurfer 2cool 6m, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m
Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 kitefoil or 2200/1700/1400 wingfoil wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, Naish MicroChip 80cm, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x
For sale: Slingshot Turbine 9/13m, 20” Guardian bar, 1700 sq.cm wing/fuselage/stabilizer fitting Moses mast
.
- Brand Affiliation: None
-
Has thanked:
468 times
-
Been thanked:
698 times
Postby grigorib » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:18 pm
tilmann wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:46 pm
grigorib wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:23 pm
moment of inertia of object cut shape defines rigidity
mmmh, can you explain this ?
Some basic definition is here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexural_rigidity
But in basic words - if you make a perpendicular cut of an object and calculate moment of inertia of shape you get then the higher the number will be the more rigidity it will have for the same area of the cut.
So if you imagine an I-beam and a rod with identical area of the perpendicular cut the I-beam will be much more rigid for bending and twisting but of course will have identical lengthwise pull strength.
In this case the strut is a thin wall object, there are special approaches for those, but overall same result - a tiny pipe inflated to huge pressure will be easy to bend compared to larger tube inflated proportionally to diameter change (same force on the walls)
-
kitexpert
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 1421
- Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
- Gear: many kites, also diy
- Brand Affiliation: None
-
Has thanked:
57 times
-
Been thanked:
137 times
Postby kitexpert » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:57 pm
Bigger diameter structure (tube) has a benefit for rigidity for two reasons: 1) material of it is further from where forces affect 2) there is more material there (larger diameter=larger circumference=larger area).
So if beam diameter is reduced from 12cm to 8cm (33%) there will be about 70% loss of rigidity (for same weight). Perhaps increasing pressure 3x as high would give about original rigidity. If strut is too thin it is almost impossible to get similar rigidity by adding pressure.
-
nixmatters
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 971
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:38 pm
- Kiting since: 2009
- Style: freeride. started foiling, not there yet
- Gear: mostly custom made
- Brand Affiliation: None currently
-
Has thanked:
369 times
-
Been thanked:
247 times
Postby nixmatters » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:11 pm
fully agree with kitexpert that decreasing diameter and (dramatically) increasing pressure will only work to a point.
Then flying with scuba tanks and having 100psi explosions at a busy beach won't help much our sport grow.
Someone mentioned dropstitch above. I wonder if this could be an option, especially with 3D dropstitch that is already available, but for much larger inflatable structures. Here is an example I spotted at a trade fair earlier this year:
-
Attachments
-
-
-
grigorib
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
- Kiting since: 2009
- Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; Hood River; La Ventana; Ocean Park, PR; SPI; Tawas, MI
- Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, Turbine 9/13m, SST 4/5m, UFO 3/5/7/9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Flysurfer 2cool 6m, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m
Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 kitefoil or 2200/1700/1400 wingfoil wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, Naish MicroChip 80cm, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x
For sale: Slingshot Turbine 9/13m, 20” Guardian bar, 1700 sq.cm wing/fuselage/stabilizer fitting Moses mast
.
- Brand Affiliation: None
-
Has thanked:
468 times
-
Been thanked:
698 times
Postby grigorib » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:22 pm
All that said, a proper support bridle might compensate for loss of rigidity so it’d be nice to see something new evolve be it more or less practical eventually
-
faklord
- Frequent Poster
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:03 pm
- Brand Affiliation: None
-
Has thanked:
35 times
-
Been thanked:
80 times
Postby faklord » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:17 pm
For what it’s worth, by my calculations, the ‘rigidity’ will be a function of: Pressure * radius (or diameter) cubed.
Thus an 8cm tube will require 3.375 * the pressure of a 12cm tube. (12cubed/8cubed).
-
tomtom
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 1693
- Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:00 am
-
Has thanked:
23 times
-
Been thanked:
218 times
Postby tomtom » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:19 am
It cannot be so simple
Rigidity is thickness cubed ,skin modul linear and then long long nothing and them core properties. Pressure is infact core
-
Lokihel
- Frequent Poster
- Posts: 463
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:36 am
- Style: Yes
- Gear: North, Shinn, Zeeko foil
-
Has thanked:
0
-
Been thanked:
0
Postby Lokihel » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:02 am
nixmatters wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:11 pm
fully agree with kitexpert that decreasing diameter and (dramatically) increasing pressure will only work to a point.
Then flying with scuba tanks and having 100psi explosions at a busy beach won't help much our sport grow.
Someone mentioned dropstitch above. I wonder if this could be an option, especially with 3D dropstitch that is already available, but for much larger inflatable structures. Here is an example I spotted at a trade fair earlier this year:
The dropstitch is what we have in inflatable SUP's.
It goes against the original intent of the high pressure industrial tubing to keep the costs low.
-
GregK
- Very Frequent Poster
- Posts: 690
- Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:22 am
- Kiting since: 2000
- Local Beach: Comox, BC
CANADA
- Style: Average
- Gear: Lift V2 Surf & HA wingsets
Ocean Rodeo kites & wings
- Brand Affiliation: started Comox Kite Repair
- Location: Comox, BC CANADA
-
Has thanked:
56 times
-
Been thanked:
136 times
Postby GregK » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:59 am
Thank you mixmatters for the links to the papers on Air Inflated Fabric Structures.
They do an excellent job of explaining how a pressurized fabric tube works, very enlightening.
Return to “Kitesurfing”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], BillyGoatGruff, droffats, Gonzavala, jannik, lifeinthehood, Manxman, MKM, SENDIT!, Tony in FL, Yahoo [Bot] and 353 guests