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Moses 2019-2020

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grigorib
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Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105/111cm masts with 637+695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $690, Moses 679/749/483 $890, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 pm

So as I said above I got my 710 fuselage and 450 stabilizer today and had reasons to be glad and had reasons to be disappointed.
First thing first, the data (pics below)

749 vs 710 vs 743v1 fuselages
Weight 893g | 850g | 989g
length between front mast mount hole to nearest wing hole 106mm | 93mm | 65mm
length between closest wing hole and stabilizer hole 507mm | 467mm | 513mm
note: front stabilizer bolt supplied with 710 is 20mm vs 16mm supplied with 749

483 vs 450 stabilizer
Area (sq.cm) 316 | 325.65 - 3% increase
Weight 196g | 241g - 23% increase
note: 450 wingtips are pointed up and are less pointy so there'll be less chance of wingtip damage (which 483 occasionally gets)

Complete weight
633/749/483 2177g (original version released in 2017)
633/749/483 1815g (newer version being sold lately)
683s/710/450 1857g

A nice note before I start complaining - the 683s/710/450 fits into Slingshot Fkite bag (no chance for 633/749/483) and I like those a lot. They keep wings safe from anything around and they protect everything around from wings

Now, time to b!tch and I'm surprised/pissed
- I don't know why and what is the reason behind smaller 683s (vs. 633) and a tad larger 450 (vs. 483) paired with lighter fuselage to result in more total weight.
- I don't know how and why 450 being only 3% larger than 483 weigh 45g more (23% extra). Reminds me of original heavy 633 set
- I don't know by what standards there's a gap between leading edge of 683s wing and fuselage but that gap is even bigger that I saw between 590 and 680 fuselage. The gap catches small seaweed strains and messes up riding. To be fair the gap is same with 683s mounted on either 749 or 710 and it's not present with 633 wing

I will certainly be riding 683s/710/450 but I wish it was flawless and if someone had looked at it more critically - we'd have a perfect set.
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max
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby max » Tue May 14, 2019 9:37 pm

grigorib wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 pm

- I don't know by what standards there's a gap between leading edge of 683s wing and fuselage but that gap is even bigger that I saw between 590 and 680 fuselage. The gap catches small seaweed strains and messes up riding. To be fair the gap is same with 683s mounted on either 749 or 710 and it's not present with 633 wing

I will certainly be riding 683s/710/450 but I wish it was flawless and if someone had looked at it more critically - we'd have a perfect set.

This was my big disappointment also. I initially thought it was a defect in mine until a friend said that his was the same with the 749 . . . I have the 710.

Also, was told that the 633 fit perfectly.

It suggests that the fuselage is made for the 633 and that the 683 upper foil differs ever so slightly but that they could live with there being a gap.


Only really an issue on a weedy day for me which has not been often and I gather the small gap could be filled with thin foam shim (that is my plan if it starts to really bother me)

max
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby max » Tue May 14, 2019 9:48 pm

grigorib wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 pm
So as I said above I got my 710 fuselage and 450 stabilizer today and had reasons to be glad and had reasons to be disappointed.
First thing first, the data (pics below)

749 vs 710 vs 743v1 fuselages
Weight 893g | 850g | 989g
length between front mast mount hole to nearest wing hole 106mm | 93mm | 65mm
length between closest wing hole and stabilizer hole 507mm | 467mm | 513mm
note: front stabilizer bolt supplied with 710 is 20mm vs 16mm supplied with 749

483 vs 450 stabilizer
Area (sq.cm) 316 | 325.65 - 3% increase
Weight 196g | 241g - 23% increase
note: 450 wingtips are pointed up and are less pointy so there'll be less chance of wingtip damage (which 483 occasionally gets)


I will certainly be riding 683s/710/450 but I wish it was flawless and if someone had looked at it more critically - we'd have a perfect set.


Am keen to hear about the 683 with the 450 stabiliser in comparison to the 483 stabiliser.

Also, regarding the 749 v's the 710.
Are your measurements slightly off or is there a difference somewhere else? 39mm difference in length and 13mm (106-93) and 40mm (507-467) makes 53mm in movement.

grigorib
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Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105/111cm masts with 637+695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $690, Moses 679/749/483 $890, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Wed May 15, 2019 12:27 am

max wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:48 pm

Also, regarding the 749 v's the 710.
Are your measurements slightly off or is there a difference somewhere else? 39mm difference in length and 13mm (106-93) and 40mm (507-467) makes 53mm in movement.
106 vs 93 is from rear hole of front wing to front hole of mast mount
507 vs 467 is from rear hole of front wing to front hole of stabilizer

The first measurement is part of the second one, you don’t add them up. So 40mm I measured is about 39mm dotal length difference and 1mm must have been lost in translation :)

Even Stringy’s 743v1 fuselage is overall shorter by 6mm (749-743=6) but has wing and stabilizer further apart by 6mm (513-507=6). There is more material and weight to cut off on that fuselage :)
Last edited by grigorib on Wed May 15, 2019 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

grigorib
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Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105/111cm masts with 637+695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $690, Moses 679/749/483 $890, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 am

Gonzolinho wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:41 pm
Moses will be out of the market soon.
Slinghot has stopped the cooperation with them, so it will be interesting to see the new developments being released as almost all of the wings were Slingshot designs.
Moses makes one of the best foils you can buy. Slingshot is already behind Cabrinha in neat aluminum mast foils and unlike clean Cabrinha line the slingshot wing line is confusing and overlapping. Slingshot did dump LP, then MHL and then they made huge mistake betting on outdated race foil wings two years back instead of waiting for few months and marketing 590/683s/633 which they could have also market as “choose your components - build your own setup”. They missed to market 71cm mast, 548 and 683s wings completely. So there’s a lot to learn from.

I hope they pick up the trend and come with clean, light line of foils, I wish them best. I ride Moses and Slingshot-rebranded Moses so I’m very thankful to both companies for fueling my addiction.

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Flyboy
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby Flyboy » Wed May 15, 2019 3:11 am

grigorib wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 am
Gonzolinho wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:41 pm
Moses will be out of the market soon.
Slinghot has stopped the cooperation with them, so it will be interesting to see the new developments being released as almost all of the wings were Slingshot designs.
Moses makes one of the best foils you can buy. Slingshot is already behind Cabrinha in neat aluminum mast foils and unlike clean Cabrinha line the slingshot wing line is confusing and overlapping. Slingshot did dump LP, then MHL and then they made huge mistake betting on outdated race foil wings two years back instead of waiting for few months and marketing 590/683s/633 which they could have also market as “choose your components - build your own setup”. They missed to market 71cm mast, 548 and 683s wings completely. So there’s a lot to learn from.

I hope they pick up the trend and come with clean, light line of foils, I wish them best. I ride Moses and Slingshot-rebranded Moses so I’m very thankful to both companies for fueling my addiction.
I'm not clear ... is Slingshot not collaborating with Moses in the future?

Foil
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby Foil » Wed May 15, 2019 7:41 am

I don't think the future of moses is on shaky ground, quite the opposite.
I had a very interesting conversation with a direct contact of an industry insider this week, when I was asking him about the confusing reasons moses had brought out the 450 rear wing and shorter fuselage,
during a trip to the moses factory to explore the production process and ask questions inside the new factory, for example,moses explained that many brands were asking moses to make their carbon masts, the reasons were suggesting moses masts are the best for the price we pay, they witnessed the masts being made and could not believe the level of detail moses go to to get it right, and came away not understanding how Moses can charge so little considering the lengthy detailed process.
their customer service is fantastic, I have experienced that side myself, and my sailing buddies have as well, can't fault them, apart from confusing us with product codes and dates of new product release,
cut/paste errors on their website last year were odd.apart from that they are the best high quality brand for the price.

mind you, I think Gong is probably the best value allround, but is direct sales only with a small presence on the beach.
I have studied their full product range and its big with very good prices.some prices are shockingly low, not high tech stuff but getting better.
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tomtom
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby tomtom » Wed May 15, 2019 9:39 am

max wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:37 pm
grigorib wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 pm

- I don't know by what standards there's a gap between leading edge of 683s wing and fuselage but that gap is even bigger that I saw between 590 and 680 fuselage. The gap catches small seaweed strains and messes up riding. To be fair the gap is same with 683s mounted on either 749 or 710 and it's not present with 633 wing

I will certainly be riding 683s/710/450 but I wish it was flawless and if someone had looked at it more critically - we'd have a perfect set.

This was my big disappointment also. I initially thought it was a defect in mine until a friend said that his was the same with the 749 . . . I have the 710.

Also, was told that the 633 fit perfectly.

It suggests that the fuselage is made for the 633 and that the 683 upper foil differs ever so slightly but that they could live with there being a gap.


Only really an issue on a weedy day for me which has not been often and I gather the small gap could be filled with thin foam shim (that is my plan if it starts to really bother me)

and how hard is to make it like this... :evil: With all moses tech 5 axis robots etc... ridiculous
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Foil
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Posts: 1049
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: NewBrighton beach-Derby pool end,Wallasey, near Liverpool for 6 months in summer
Flag beach on fuerteventura for 6 months in winter.
Favorite Beaches: Flag beach fuerteventura, off season/6months
Home - NewBrighton,Rhosneigr, Ainsdale, Fleetwood, Newbrough
Style: improving foiler.
Gear: Groove Skate 120,carbon 2020 edition
101cm + 82cm Moses Carbon masts
Moses- 633/483 on a 701 fuse
Ozone Hyperlink V1 ultra light 5mtr
Ozone V2 Hyperlink 7mtr + 9mtr
Ozone Chrono V3 UL foil kites - 9 +11mtr
Ozone compact V4 bars,click in,23 mtr lines
duotone click bar 2020
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby Foil » Wed May 15, 2019 11:06 am

the gap at the front shown above made me check my 683s on the longer fuse, this years (not the 710)
no gap!
my wing is maybe 7 weeks old and the fuse 6 months old.
I have taken a photo in bright light and will post up later today when my brand new 683s and brand new longer fuse arrives,
I can compare the two together, I also have a brand new week old 633 wing so will check to fit with that as well.

mmmm, just checked my new one and the gap is there just like the photos above :cry: so will be using that fuse for my 633 wing as that is perfect.

strange that my other fuse is a perfect fit on the 683s, but it is, so it will stay on that fuse. :thumb:
Last edited by Foil on Wed May 15, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105/111cm masts with 637+695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $690, Moses 679/749/483 $890, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Wed May 15, 2019 4:08 pm

I'm really glad that whatever Tony and Moses did together and for each other resulted in amazing gear I love to ride.
After all, I personally want to ride gear which is great and I'd contribute and share both excitement and critique with whichever brand I ride.
I tried to reach out to Tony last May but got stonewalled. Jimmy took time to communicate with me.
I've got observations and feedback and I'm not bound by NDAs or contracts. I hope feedback from me and all of us would shape manufacturers' offerings and would result in better gear and our endless hours on water on that gear.

For now on my Moses wish list there are still couple more items:
- 81cm carbon mast (currently substituting with aluminum setup)
- larger (850-1000 sq.cm), more arrowheaded wing for 647 fuselage (currently substituting with 683s/710/450)
Last edited by grigorib on Wed May 15, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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