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2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

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foilholio
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby foilholio » Sun May 12, 2019 1:10 am

Flying lines should always be even is the same silly advice all tube kite brands hand out. No wonder it is a struggle for most kiters to conceive of a different brand bar on a different brand kite.

Trimming a kite is the most basic of basic skills. If you can't work out how adjusting the trimmer, sheeting the bar, moving knots or adding pigtails all relate to each other, give up now forget foil kites let alone touching the mixer. Maybe give up kite boarding. You are a potential danger, ask for a refund from whomever taught you, they failed.

norcom
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby norcom » Mon May 13, 2019 2:26 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 4:07 pm
Lines being even or uneven is irrelevant. If you have hit the end of your trim range on the bar then you need to adjust things further with the lines. You need to shorten the fronts or lengthen the rears.

It does sound like there is something wrong with the kite though. The fact it is stalling and you can't turn it does not sound right. It probably is something wrong at the mixer, but could likely be other bridles... Mixer for me would be easy to fix just looking at it. If you can video it in action with it close enough for to see the bridles tensioning on and off I can give you advice. Otherwise start a paypal dispute and get a refund!

The problem at a guess is B is way too short and maybe C. But alternately it could be Z and maybe C is too long. First you would have to get the lines adjusted so you can correctly or fully trim the kite. If you can't get enough slack in B to depower it well or fly forward or have it completely slack at the window edge, then you may need to further adjust lines or lengthen B. From there then you adjust Z and C.
If I lengthen the rear lines, the trim will be fine at the bar but the steering lines will still be too long. It's definitely something in the mixer.
I'll try to get a video or pics of it in action.
kitexpert wrote: norcom: Apparently some Genesis kites have for some reason very loose brakes (or at least that one had which I tuned). That makes kite turn very slowly, almost non reacting to steering input. So first correction is to shorten Z some 10-20cm and try again.

Kite itself is ok after it is tuned up and the price is unbeatable. Those smallest ones are probably the most useful because slowness can't be such an issue for them. It is not a high performance kite but it isn't meant to be. It is soft and stable kite, for boosting it is simply bad.

If front lines/back lines seems not to be correct to each other adjustments should be made to the kite, not flying lines which should always be equal.
The build quality of the kite itself is really nice, I was quite surprised. Just wish Pansh would get the mixer quality on par.
If I shorten the Z, wouldn't that just make the kite backstall even more as pulling the trim all the way in (making back lines longer) is the only way to get it to zenith? I'm picturing a shorter Z would just put it deeper down in the window?

I'm not afraid to play with the mixer and I'm capable of making my own lines. It's just the time and understanding what to change.

thnx!

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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby grigorib » Mon May 13, 2019 2:51 pm

You can just add trailing edge bridles and use ozone crossover bar system

foilholio
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby foilholio » Mon May 13, 2019 9:59 pm

It is highly possible they may have assembled the mixer wrong. I would guess a mixer test should show something drastically out. You could try getting someone else with the 2019 Genesis give you the mixer test and B limit measurements. The pansh facebook page has people with the kite or you could comment on the 4m youtube vid.
norcom wrote: If I lengthen the rear lines, the trim will be fine at the bar but the steering lines will still be too long.
They can't be "too" long if the trim is "right". I am guessing you are saying they are too long because you then can't sheet in enough to turn the kite, which indicates that C and Z are too long or alternately maybe B is too short.
norcom wrote:It's definitely something in the mixer.
Hopefully in which case it would be easy for me to fix and I should be able to direct you to too.
norcom wrote:I'll try to get a video or pics of it in action.
Picture of the mixer would be good. Also measurements from the mixer test so B and C values + or - with AZ even under tension, and the B limit which is how far B extends past A with just front main/line fixed. Also pulley line lengths.

Honestly from your first description it almost sounds like the mixer is on backwards. I guess for $89 dollars a number of things could happen with parts not installed correctly. I have read of the wrong size bridle being installed on Pansh before.

Don't give up hope contacting them. Start a Paypal dispute to get their attention. They have line plans and can very easily give them to you. With a line plan you can just measure and find whats wrong more straight forward. Alternately tell em to send another kite or give your money back as it really is not good they do this.
norcom wrote: The build quality of the kite itself is really nice, I was quite surprised.
I thought you have other Panshs? They build them all very similarly.
norcom wrote: If I shorten the Z, wouldn't that just make the kite backstall even more as pulling the trim all the way in (making back lines longer) is the only way to get it to zenith? I'm picturing a shorter Z would just put it deeper down in the window?
Maybe but not usually. The mixer (usually when correct) engages parts of the kite in stages first B then C then Z. You will usually have a working range of where just B is engaged then B+C then B+C+Z. It is possible to have it setup so only Z engages or B or C or B+Z or C+Z. For most kites they would not be a correct setup. Though for example my A15 I have removed most of C and changed some of B to C. It is quite easy for the experienced eye to see when and how a mixer is working. You can see the tension and the canopy being pulled. To me when looking at your kite I would guess you would see B under tension a lot but not C or Z and highly likely Z is slack a lot as kitexpert says.

For Z to permanently engage and cause backstall or limit AOA (deeper) you would have to shorten it heaps like 50cm or more, maybe even a meter. The kite should become highly unstable because of camber increase long before any backstall.

norcom wrote: I'm not afraid to play with the mixer and I'm capable of making my own lines. It's just the time and understanding what to change.
Good. Ask questions! Don't lack an understanding!
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norcom
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby norcom » Tue May 14, 2019 5:25 pm

foilholio wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:59 pm
They can't be "too" long if the trim is "right". I am guessing you are saying they are too long because you then can't sheet in enough to turn the kite, which indicates that C and Z are too long or alternately maybe B is too short.
Yes, I meant too long as I can't sheet in enough to turn the kite. I can turn it but it takes a lot of pull on the bar.
foilholio wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:59 pm
Picture of the mixer would be good. Also measurements from the mixer test so B and C values + or - with AZ even under tension, and the B limit which is how far B extends past A with just front main/line fixed. Also pulley line lengths.

Honestly from your first description it almost sounds like the mixer is on backwards. I guess for $89 dollars a number of things could happen with parts not installed correctly. I have read of the wrong size bridle being installed on Pansh before.
Working on trying it again and getting pix. Have to replace the AC in the house this week.

LOL I also thought maybe it's on backwards! Because if it's flying backward, maybe they did just connect the mixer backwards. I'm going to measure everything out and see what I can do. Might just try switching the mixer around.
foilholio wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:59 pm
Don't give up hope contacting them. Start a Paypal dispute to get their attention. They have line plans and can very easily give them to you. With a line plan you can just measure and find whats wrong more straight forward. Alternately tell em to send another kite or give your money back as it really is not good they do this.

I thought you have other Panshs? They build them all very similarly.
Already contacted Pansh for the line plans, hopefully they respond and if not I'll have PayPal poke them. I'm not on facebook to see if anyone else has one. I really want to get it flying though. I was taught on a 2 line kite and I've seen people who were learning start with them. After a few minutes they're mostly useless because they don't really teach you how to fly a 4 line kite.

Nope, my first Pansh. I have an Ozone R1 17m, Peak3 12m and recently picked up a Peak4 11m.

Thanks for the suggestions foilholio! I'll update once I have time to play with it.

foilholio
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby foilholio » Wed May 15, 2019 1:24 am

If the mixer is on backwards it should be fairly obvious compared to your other foils. You can look at other line plans for examples too. For example the pictures here viewtopic.php?t=2400642&p=1054966 like
Image

Given you need to sheet a lot to affect depower and turning, there is definitely something wrong with the bridles and most likely at the mixer. I would say as I or kitexpert have described is the problem. The kite is tiny so you should not need much bar to affect it.

I would start with Paypal, as I have found contacting Pansh very slow to nonexistent.

Yes you are correct 4 line kites are much more helpful teaching than 2 line kites.

No problem, I am disappointed your first Pansh is like this as I have had an overall good experience with them. Any changes I have made to them have been to improve kites that already worked. I also make changes to Flysurfers as well.

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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby Tomlutz » Wed May 15, 2019 5:43 pm

norcom wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:33 pm
foilholio wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:19 pm
Why not just get a 3m Pansh Genesis for $89?
DO NOT DO THIS! I just picked the 2019 3m for my girlfriend to teach her and the kite does not fly out of the bag. It barely flies with the depower all the way in. BARELY FLIES. It’s junk. But it was cheap.

JUNK!!!
I got a 5 m Pansh Genesis and I am happy with it. Super stable, good for beginners, but also good for strong winds. No boosting, but that is something I wanted to avoid (for teaching). Flew right away without any tweeking.

norcom
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby norcom » Thu May 23, 2019 12:18 am

Tomlutz wrote:
norcom wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:33 pm
foilholio wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:19 pm
Why not just get a 3m Pansh Genesis for $89?
DO NOT DO THIS! I just picked the 2019 3m for my girlfriend to teach her and the kite does not fly out of the bag. It barely flies with the depower all the way in. BARELY FLIES. It’s junk. But it was cheap.

JUNK!!!
I got a 5 m Pansh Genesis and I am happy with it. Super stable, good for beginners, but also good for strong winds. No boosting, but that is something I wanted to avoid (for teaching). Flew right away without any tweeking.
Lucky you Tomlutz!

Checked the bridle, it's not on backwards. Haven't had a chance to fly it again.

So sent Pansh an email over a week ago, no response. Sent one on the 21st, saying if they don't reply I'd like a refund and would have to start a PayPal dispute. GOT THIS REPLY THE NEXT DAY!

"Thank you for your email. I have forwarded your email to our Technical Department. And their answer is as below: They are doubt on the question you mentioned in your email. It is impossible. And we are quite upset on the point that you threaten us through PayPal. The fact is that the kite you bought is only 89USD with the international shipping fee included. You want to use it in teaching and you said you were experienced.

Again, we don't think there is any problem with our kite. We think it's unfair for you to threaten us by PayPal. SO we refuse to offer you customized service such as the data of the mixer and the brides. These are not included in our standard service items.

Now you have the right to return the kite. And we promise, if there are no obvious marks of use or defect, we will give you the refund as soon as we can. However we won't accept any more orders from you in the future.
"


What a joke of a "technical department" and company. How high and mighty they must feel when they don't think there's a problem with the kite, because it's IMPOSSIBLE?! They're right, it's only $89 and I got what I paid for. And because I wanted a response they now refuse to deal with me and wont accept any orders from me, yet only respond to threats. :lol:

foilholio
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby foilholio » Thu May 23, 2019 2:14 pm

Oh dear. They refuse to give you the line plan which costs them nothing and would rather you go to paypal lol. Shouldn't they be grateful and helpful that you are willing to potentially fix the kite with a little help?

norcom
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Re: 2 lines 2.5m stunt foil kite adaptation to 4 lines bar

Postby norcom » Thu May 23, 2019 3:59 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:14 pm
Oh dear. They refuse to give you the line plan which costs them nothing and would rather you go to paypal lol. Shouldn't they be grateful and helpful that you are willing to potentially fix the kite with a little help?
Yeah, I don't believe that I was even a dick about it on the first message I sent. I just explained what was happening and asked for the plans to verify everything. Then only mentioned PayPal in my second message because I didn't get a reply. Next day reply as soon as I mentioned it.

Funny enough, when you got to PayPal to file a claim against them. Pansh's default contact message asks you to wait up to 48 hours for a reply and claim to help you with any isssues. I waited for over a week and DIDN'T EVEN FILE A PAYPAL CLAIM. I just mentioned it on the emails.

Oh well, I'll see what their response will be, if any, before I involve PayPal. Might just pickup the Peak4 5m, except I'll cry when my girlfriend tomahawks that into the ground. :lol:


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