If you stand on the board and weight your front foot, where does the pull from the harness go? - It has to move more toward the nose because by shifting your body weight forward, you shift your hips forward. Thus when you are moving, the pull will be at the nose and the nose will get pulled downwind.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:53 pmStill a bit confused as to why loading front foot turns the board downwind.
Cool, this actually adds to the weatherwane effect I imagined so would make turn downwind faster - at subplaning speeds when waterstarting.Matteo V wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:58 pmIf you stand on the board and weight your front foot, where does the pull from the harness go? - It has to move more toward the nose because by shifting your body weight forward, you shift your hips forward. Thus when you are moving, the pull will be at the nose and the nose will get pulled downwind.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:53 pmStill a bit confused as to why loading front foot turns the board downwind.
Absolutely wonderful story. I had no idea!Matteo V wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:58 pmBut this is not how we primarily steer the board. That did work at subplaning speeds in windsurfing, but once planing, the rails were used to "carve" turns. Funny story on my first planing experience - I leaned the sail back and NOTHING HAPPENED. And I was coming in really close to shore. I had to ask how to steer the windsurfer when planing and was told that I needed to step on one rail or the other.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:53 pmStill a bit confused as to why loading front foot turns the board downwind.
The reason why kiteboarding does not use moving your body forward back IS because we are always on plane. So even though the physics of your concern is valid, you do not really want to try to steer with your body position. Body position is used to dig the rail, you are not using (at planing speeds) the kite's pull to turn you.
Naaa, some of these concepts are just counter intuitive. Then sprinkle some blatantly obvious and completely intuitive stuff, and it gets all mixed up. It is tough to keep it all straight. And sergei, to be honest, I may not be explaining the concepts in as simple a way as they actually exist. Not to mention that there is the possibility that I have some concepts wrong, or that some of these concepts are not actually defined - but rather just understood only as a feeling by even those at higher levels of study.
How you engage an edge for a desired outcome is based on it's shape. And always remember that you have two primary ways of engaging that edge - using your body to rotate the board to point in another direction, or using the rail shape by edging. Different shapes will react differently to each, and to both.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:28 pmStill can't visualize this with a flat kiteboard without rocker. I mean I can see how it works on a surfboard or windsurf board because those always have rocker, but can't visualize how edging on a flat kiteboard causes it to go upwind (and conversely edging less causes it to go downwind).
I looked and looked at your picture from your original reply and still don't get it. May be I am getting thick and too old.
I mean I can see how snowboard or a ski carves on hard snow/ice, but can't visualize this with edge causing turn in water. Rocker yes, but many boards have none.
Snow is pretty hard on groomer right? I mean on groomed surfaces you really do not sink in more than an inch or so. But water is much softer - you sink all the way. But what happens when you start going fast on water? Does it seem to suddenly get a bit more solid like a groomed slope? And that is where kiteboarding differentiates from windsurfing. In kiting there is no super slow movement where you are actually displacing the water in order to support your weight. It is either "sunk up to your neck" or yanked out up on a pretty much instant plane with no displacement mode. Look up some vids of a snowboard on water. If a snowboarder goes fast enough, the water can support them just like the snow can.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:28 pmbut (I) can't visualize this with edge causing turn in water. Rocker yes, but many boards have none.
I am at a bit of a loss on this one. I will try to come back to it later if you want me to.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:28 pmObviously edging more creates a bigger /taller "keel" out of the back and centre of the board as board sinks deeper. Is it that this increase in submerged surface is bigger in the middle of the board than at the tail (because if the curves edge) and this causes center of lift/water pressure to move forward? So force pushing up and upwind at say 45 degree angle gets bigger around center of the board quicker (with increase of edging angle) than at the tail thus generating rotating moment around center of mass which is closer to back foot than front foot?
Ha-ha that's a long question!
But if this works as described for whatever reason this is wonderful news to me as this is exactly how a skateboard or snowboard works, does it not?
More rocker does produce quicker turns upwind, but more rocker is less efficient at getting upwind on a linear course. This is why almost all TT kiteboards, even park and freestyle boards have less rocker than a wakeboard. Wakeboards have more rocker because the tow point (on a boat) is lower than the tow point of a kite. More rocker helps stop a lower tow point from making the rider "pearl" as easily. It also allows the rider to center their weight on the board more with out pearling. But kiters just cannot sacrifice the upwind capabilities by having that much rocker, for the low (and unneeded) payoff.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:28 pmIs my description if how it might work any good or do you have a better one? I mean board sinking deeper causing quicker increase of total force pushing upwind at the front than at the back (because of the curved edge)?
Again, yes! But don't confuse turning upwind (changing directions) with going upwind (making upwind progress). If you do confuse those two, then you would question why kiteboards are flatter and wakeboards are more rockered.sergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:28 pmThis also means that a board with a lot of curve in the edge is more aggressive in turning upwind with edging?
As a kid I was doing radio controlled gliders. My instructor was an aero engineer.Matteo V wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:37 amI am at a bit of a loss on this one. I will try to come back to it later if you want me tosergei Scotland wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:28 pmObviously edging more creates a bigger /taller "keel" out of the back and centre of the board as board sinks deeper. Is it that this increase in submerged surface is bigger in the middle of the board than at the tail (because if the curves edge) and this causes center of lift/water pressure to move forward? So force pushing up and upwind at say 45 degree angle gets bigger around center of the board quicker (with increase of edging angle) than at the tail thus generating rotating moment around center of mass which is closer to back foot than front foot?
Ha-ha that's a long question!
But if this works as described for whatever reason this is wonderful news to me as this is exactly how a skateboard or snowboard works, does it not?
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