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Duotone 2020

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Leon van Bergen
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Leon van Bergen » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:01 pm

Scandalous prices, they should be ashamed, scammers!
Another duotone and older north fan here but this really pisses me off.
For one third of that price I have three times better lines!!!

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Konza » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:55 pm

The cheap Teufelberger Lines Ex-North/Duotone is using and shitty splices are known to wear and break easily. "Fun" fact is, that Teufelberger is actually offering a better quality line but Duotone is refusing to use it*. Looking at the prices that's just fucked up. LF is now using this exact line and has quality issues too. I got really pissed when I noticed it on the Mission Control Bar since I knew I could basically throw these lines away and buy Liros instead. I bet you could hold these brands responsible if something really bad happens due to this known issue. Especially in the US.

*https://www.wetestkites.com/2018/12/22/duotone-lines/

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby ichabod » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:06 pm

Yep I agree, looking at the ratio of bars sold to line sets is very misleading. Line sets from Duotone cost as much as a new bar on closeout and are clearly priced to force people into buying a whole new bar. You can't seriously be surprised that very few people buy them? I'm not sure who in their right minds would buy a line set at this price? Shame on Duotone, by pricing like this you have effectively made the whole bar a disposable/consumable item, f**k the environment!

I always buy new on closeout and sell on each year as it makes more sense than replacing lines (plus more $$$ for fresh chicken loop to avoid breakage etc). Sponsored riders, dealers and kite schools will no doubt get fresh gear every season too so you are getting a very one sided view from them.
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby mr_daruman » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:11 pm

Profit is in selling expensive parts, not kites. Bladder, lines, screws etc...Same is true for cars, planes...
The trick is to get a quality brand name for parts, something that sounds German or like a pharmaceutical company. Then at the 3 month mark have the parts engineered so they fail very progressively so customer replaces them before the 6 month mark.
Or probably some similar BS business model.

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Dan-at-Duotone
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:54 pm

First of all there are a lot of people on here who feel that the lines we're using are subpar compared to others on the market, so I will submit to your collective experience and admit that there is room for us to improve our lines, and like I said, I'm sure it's something we're working on.

And as far as my numbers being skewed because of replacement pricing for factory lines, you're right, I hadn't considered it but it could easily be true that people are replacing with aftermarket and/or buying new bars instead.

That said, Purdyd the photo you posted of the Liros lines are mostly pigtails, which isn't fair to compare to a plain spliced line. There is only one exposed line-end in there, and it shows similar fading... The yellow look on the new 5th line in the photo of our lines is a coating that will wear off over time... Our lines are white to begin with whereas the Liros in your photo is a red line that fades to a pink from the sun. In my opinion, even though our lines look worse due to the nature of the 8-strand loose-knit and the inherent fuzziness, I don't think that ours look less capable of continued use than the Liros, though I fully admit that you have more experience with these different lines and if you say that our lines don't last as long as others I believe you. I'm old, started kiting a while ago, and I'm used to having to replace lines fairly regularly, I'm open to the idea that line technology has improved and I should expect more from my lines, in which case I'm assuming the guys in international are also aware of this and are working on something, for now we are offering what we currently can/have. As it is I see our flying lines can take regular abuse for 12-18 months without needing replacement, but perhaps the new norm is that lines should take the same abuse for 24-36 months and we've let that slide past us. Similar to material... We started with regular ripstop, went to D2 10 years ago, and upgraded again to Trinity TX a few years ago. At the time we thought we were using the best materials but if we were using standard ripstop or D2 now we'd obviously be behind the curve.

As far as the brake pad analogy, I'm not sure that's entirely fair. It's like wetsuits, or tires or many other things. Expensive ones aren't necessarily made to last longer. My favorite wetsuits are extremely flexible, waterproof, and warm but need replacing every year. Cheap school suits suck but last forever. Brake pads that last the longest can be cheaper but offer little modulation and fade when heated. Gimme expensive, high-wear, 3C tires every day of the week. Like I said before, we've been working on lines that offer a mix of properties that we like within a certain pricepoint.

As far as pricing I agree that our lines are very expensive. Absolutely. Our lines also come with multiple pigtails and a 30cm extension to help deal with stretch/shrinkage. And I know that you can get cheaper replacement lines from aftermarket sources that may be higher quality. I also know that throwing a word like SK99 around sounds great but there are different grades of line... Factories offer B quality SK99 lines made from shorter strands woven together that may not have as good stretch/strength as an A quality line of cheaper material... with a factory original part (like an original manufacturer's part for your car) it may be more expensive but you know that you're getting an A grade version of the part you're looking for, even if it's steel vs an aftermarket carbon.
And yes Teufelberger offers better lines. But I don't think it's fair to berate us on one hand for our lines being too expensive and then on the other tell us that we should be paying up for nicer lines. Everything in this industry is trying to balance the line between maintaining quality and cost. It's easy to say "they're just fleecing us, bastards" but I see the other side. I see people in the office every day trying to figure out how to manufacture in such a way to hit price points to keep the sport as affordable as possible while still improving gear every year.

Sorry, I digress too easily. The point is taken; people prefer other lines. I understand that and the guys at DTK international understand that. We think the lines we've been using for the last 5 years are good, but we're aware that there are better options and that the market prefers other lines and as always we will work on improving our offerings in the future. Thank you all (well most of you) for your civility and openness to discuss this without resorting to anger or straight-up bashing. I honestly appreciate real discussion.

And as I've said, if you have issues with the longevity of your lines (and you're in North America) feel free to hit me up with a PM, we think we offer great products throughout our line and we stand behind all of our gear.

-Dan

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby iriejohn » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:08 pm

Dan-at-Duotone wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:54 pm
... But I don't think it's fair to berate us on one hand for our lines being too expensive and then on the other tell us that we should be paying up for nicer lines.
It is fair.

If you charge a premium price (which you do) then you should supply premium quality lines (which you do not).
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby purdyd » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:06 am

The picture I posted of the liros pigtail is indicative of the shape the others are in. I showed the pigtails on the line because frankly they are a pain to take off and I wanted to show I do indeed use pigtails.

The point was about the difference in fraying. Fraying comes from Broken fibers which reduces the strength of the line.

Yes, colored kite lines are Coated and the color will wear away. It is common in my experience to see uneven coloring on kite lines with lighter regions near high wear points, eg. wear lines cross, near the kite where they rub during untangling, and in the loops.

I have never seen such a uniform and complete loss of color as in the Duotone lines.

The lines that we are buying as replacement are name brand high quality lines built by skilled labor, and they are cheaper.

I think your fabric analogy is a good one, your competitors are offering longer lasting and higher performance lines. Time to catch up.

The line situation is going to get more focus in my opinion. As pointed out, a lot of people would just buy new bars and that was an economical option at one time.

the click bar because of its price, changes that paradigm. There will be people using bars for a lot longer time.

We did get excited when we saw Ralf Grosel was testing new kite lines but I conjecture that was too late in design and production cycle.

Ideally I imagine the kite designers would want the new lines in their hands so they could match it with the new kites. So maybe next year. :D

Thanks for the discussion and taking time to answer questions. Always appreciated.
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Milko0k
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Milko0k » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:20 am

Just this evening I saw a guy launch (assisted) his 12m Rebel in 14-18kt wind, snap a line and put it up on a tree.

So drive for an hour to the beach one way, get everything ready, launch and then spend another two hours acting like a monkey trying to bring the damaged kite down while everyone else around is having a blast.
Yeah it really SUCKS!!!

And I'm absolutely sure that everyone present made a mental note not to get themselves in same predicament regardless what you call the brand or how much they charge for the gear.

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Teabageppo » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:19 am

Dan,

You know I'm a big Duotone fan. Been riding north / duotone kites for many years and so do the several riders I kite with.

But your lines deteriorate much faster than comparable brands such as ozone etc. We all think the same thing and there is enough feedback on here to satisfy this argument.

...and I've been saying this for many years on here and Seabreeze to - whenever I get the change actually, because I do think/know it lets your premium product down severely. .

You don't need any more feedback, there's been plenty and on a consistent basis.

Change.

ps and thankyou for your honest participation in the discussion. Much Appreciated.

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby sixdivision » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:04 am

in unrelated news, here's the new evo 2020:
https://www.vertigo-sports.com/en/duoto ... =200093334
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