That guy is dangerous

[downunder]

You are still going about the same?

I hope u realize that the most life threatening injuries happen in the bathroom.

[Pemba]

I have to side with Matteo. I think this thread can be summarized as:

1. Are safety devices perceived as "cool" or "uncool" and does this perception influence their use. Everybody can answer this question for themselves. Personally I have to admit that I find them "uncool" and although I don't have any access to them, that perception might well influence my not using them. Fashion can be cool or uncool, safety devices should not if their use of them becomes restricted by that. I can't imagine that I'm unique in this perception. This is not a good.

2. Are safety devices actually influencing safety or not, either in a positive or in a negative way. It's easy to come up with arguments for both. It makes sense to me that in some cases they don't help, might even be negative as Frank82 and others have indicated. But I think with hydrofoiling coming up the way it does, they will contribute in a positive way in many cases. In any case, without science or statistics to back up an argument these can go on and on. Although I guess science and statistics are also distrusted quite a bit on this forum. I do note that that were little or no arguments against some safety devices such as floatation devices mainly just against helmets.

3. Should safety devices be actively promoted as Matteo does or should everybody mind their own business. Matteo is promoting them because he believes they are safer and because he thinks the government/regulation might step in if they aren't taken up on a bigger scale I think. In the end, without regulation everybody will do as they choose to, which is as it should be I think. Personally I feel that I should be allowed to put (only) myself at risk but I can see that other kiters are really against that because they will inevitably get involved if things go wrong. So minding my own business does influence others, unpleasant as that might be. The bigger picture here is obviously more relevant: kiting accidents leading to prohibiting kiting etc. So for me it makes perfect sense speaking up in favor safety decices for kiting although it would be better if there was something concrete to back that up.

[downunder]

^
That is his government/regulations.

See the difference? Not all governments are the same. He is always pointing out about danger of closing the local spots. His spots.

And yet, he doesn't see the value of having a club with strong club members to represent the sport to the same local government. And insurance negotiations. He has no third party liability insurance, and laughed about it.

See the problem?

So safety oriented and yet so ignorant to much bigger kiting communities around the World.

None of my buddies who broke a neck wear a helmet. And know at least 3-4.

Think about that. Helmet will not prevent u to break a neck. Quite opposite.

The surfing community doesn't wear a Gath helmet. There are more broken necks or heavy head injuries with surfers than will ever be with kiters. Plus fatalities.

[Matteo V]

3. Should safety devices be actively promoted as Matteo does or should everybody mind their own business. Matteo is promoting them because he believes they are safer and because he thinks the government/regulation might step in if they aren't taken up on a bigger scale I think. In the end, without regulation everybody will do as they choose to, which is as it should be I think. Personally I feel that I should be allowed to put (only) myself at risk but I can see that other kiters are really against that because they will inevitably get involved if things go wrong.

I wish that every one has the freedom to do as they choose AND make the right decision. But my main goal is to stop the idiotic mentality of "You can tell that guy is a clueless kook since he is wearing a helmet". How many beginners, looking for some respect as the new guy, are going to equate wearing a helmet with looking uncool? Leading by example is not a strong point of most kiteboarders I know. But just swallowing a bit of your pride, putting on a helmet and helping beginners, and you could save lives BY EXAMPLE. Yes, I agree it is everyone's choice. But don't shame them out of making the right one, which could get them killed because of your pride.

[kgb]

Natural selection chum, not others pride.

You said it yourself remember?

[Matteo V]

Ah downsey! I was hoping we could get to some unfinished business.

He has no third party liability insurance, and laughed about it.

First off, I have never laughed about insurance. BUT I do find it ironic that you are grandstanding about you having insurance over your kite activities. But you have no product liability, or engineering insurance for the helmets you make or tell others how to make? I think you really need to reevaluate your priorities. And what kind of carbon fabric are you using for those helmets? Because most carbon composites are the worst choice for impact protection since they are never good for more than one impact.

I mean did you already forget about addressing this issue that you made an excuse for ignoring just a few weeks ago? You must have a very short memory.





And no need for anyone else to read on as I just want to see if downsey can clarify some of the incoherent babble in the rest of his post.

^
That is his government/regulations.

See the difference? Not all governments are the same. He is always pointing out about danger of closing the local spots. His spots.

I don't think you meant it this way, but "these spots" are not "my spots". I have no ownership over them, just responsibilities. And in my travels, I go to many different locations. Lots have been closed, not just in the US but other countries/regions around the world. So what are you saying? That I only care about the spots that I regularly kite at or occasionally visit???

And yet, he doesn't see the value of having a club with strong club members to represent the sport to the same local government. And insurance negotiations. He has no third party liability insurance, and laughed about it.

See the problem?

So safety oriented and yet so ignorant to much bigger kiting communities around the World.

Again, I am very much at a loss for what you are trying to say above. Are you saying that Kiteforum is not a worldwide/international place to discuss issues in kiteboarding. I very much think it is and this is the place to share ideas around the globe. So could you clarify what you think is wrong with this very much non-localized part of the many things I do to support the kiteboarding community?

Think about that. Helmet will not prevent u to break a neck. Quite opposite.

I think you are technically correct, but very incomplete with your statement. What you should say is that not loosing consciousness (because you were wearing a helmet) WILL ABSOUTELY PREVENT YOU FROM BREAKING YOU NECK IN KITEBOARDING. Not to mention preventing drowning (knocked unconscious while in the water). So what maybe you mean to say is that a helmet does give you protection and any possible downside is infinitely outweighed by the upside? Again, maybe you just did not finish your thought on this one?

The surfing community doesn't wear a Gath helmet. There are more broken necks or heavy head injuries with surfers than will ever be with kiters. Plus fatalities.

Yes, prone surfers almost never wear a helmet. They do have their hands free even when getting tumbled in the wave(not on the kite bar and/or holding the board in their other hand) and they do not have to worry about kite lines wrapping around them. This allows prone surfers some degree of protection from the board directly impacting your head, just from putting their hands and arms on their head. But are surfers endanger of being drug by their boards while on land? Can they get drug into a car in the parking lot? Your thought here is definitely incomplete. Could you finish it for me?

[Matteo V]

Natural selection chum, not others pride.

You said it yourself remember?

Doing something stupid as an original thought, or more likely by seeing another's stupid example, especially when trying to be "cool" or "fashionable" DEFINITELY can be classified under the term of "natural selection". The smarter and wiser have much less of a tendency to get killed doing something stupid.

And pride? Yes we are a very prideful species. This simple fact is the reason why MANY MANY MANY have died by their own hand or by others. Extreme sports seem to attract a large percentage of people with more pride than sense.

So what is your argument (as in reason for being here)?

[kgb]

Just reminding you of your sins,

Because I can be?

[Matteo V]

Just reminding you of your sins,

Because I can be?

Congradulations on beliveing you have found purpose. Usefulness should be your next endeavor. Specifically, something somewhat on topic.

[kgb]

Glad to see you have stopped denying your statement, that shows a willingness to learn and I guess a gradual understanding of your wrongdoing

Well done.