Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Aluula? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Forum for kitesurfers
Havre
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:38 am
Kiting since: 2015
Local Beach: Oslo
Favorite Beaches: Jericoacoara (area) & Cabarete
Gear: Ozone Zephyr 17m, Ozone Enduro v1 12m, Ozone Enduro v1 9m, HQ Topaz 7m, Shinn Ronson Player, Mystic Majestic X Harness, Mystic Stealth Bar
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 127 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Havre » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:18 pm

How does a kite normally puncture? I have only seen a handful of kites puncture and all of them except one was due to crashing the kite hard out of the water. Would today's material distribute the force of that better than Aluula?

And even if Aluula was a worse material for punctures it would have to be a lot worse before I considered it much of an issue.

cor
Frequent Poster
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:20 pm
Gear: -
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby cor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm

Havre wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:18 pm
How does a kite normally puncture? I have only seen a handful of kites puncture and all of them except one was due to crashing the kite hard out of the water. Would today's material distribute the force of that better than Aluula?
At around 10:20 in that video he brings an example of a sharp object on a lawn (e.g. a sharp stone, shell, etc.). If the kite would fall on that object, he claims that the Aluula material would be easier to puncture and then potentially damage the bladder than with the material used today. That's the only disadvantage he mentions. Apart from that, he agrees with all the benefits it comes with.
These users thanked the author cor for the post:
Havre (Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:05 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2062
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 141 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:47 pm

cor wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm
Havre wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:18 pm
How does a kite normally puncture? I have only seen a handful of kites puncture and all of them except one was due to crashing the kite hard out of the water. Would today's material distribute the force of that better than Aluula?
At around 10:20 in that video he brings an example of a sharp object on a lawn (e.g. a sharp stone, shell, etc.). If the kite would fall on that object, he claims that the Aluula material would be easier to puncture and then potentially damage the bladder than with the material used today. That's the only disadvantage he mentions. Apart from that, he agrees with all the benefits it comes with.
Wait! How can Graphene be better (thinner) than Kevlar at stopping a bullet, yet still be more susceptible to puncture? Those of us who have worked with Kevlar know how difficult it is to cut or puncture unless you can actually open up the weave. Given that Graphene is bonded at the molecular level, how sharp of an object would it take to puncture it? Where is this guy getting this theory from?

cor
Frequent Poster
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:20 pm
Gear: -
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby cor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:12 pm

@Matteo V: I have no idea. I am just translating the interview and that's what Armin says. But to me, it does not sound like a theory but actually something he or FS has actually tested (but he does not say that explicitly). Also, Armin is very known for knowing what he is talking about.

User avatar
Bille
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3662
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:37 pm
Local Beach: Lake Mohave
Gear: Ozone Edge
Brand Affiliation: Barz Optics
Jaybar Dynabar V7
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Bille » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:50 pm

cor wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm
...

At around 10:20 in that video he brings an example of a sharp object on a lawn (e.g. a sharp stone, shell, etc.). If the kite would fall on that object, he claims that the
Aluula material would be easier to puncture
and then potentially damage the bladder than with the material used today. That's the only disadvantage he mentions. Apart from that, he agrees with all the benefits it comes with.
Sorry for the Bummer here , "But" :
that's kinda, of a HUGE disadvantage !!

A few weeks ago , i had to fold up my 13M Edge ; some schmuck
broke a bottle on the beach and it cut a 12-mm rip in my LE.
YES---- Kevlar , Spectra, or Synthex™ ; all of them , would have
(helped) to stop that rip, from ever happening in the first place.

My newest fake legs are made from a Synthex™ sandwich construction ;
and i haven't bin able to break them.

What good is an expensive material ; that Can puncture easy ?

Bille

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2062
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 141 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:09 pm

I am still going to wait on for some confirmation on this one. That a material that can be used to make a bullet proof shirt (not a thick vest), is actually more susceptible to punctures/cutting, is a little tough to believe.

I mean I kite lots of locations with everything from "goat head" stickers, sharp point dune grass, and glass. That would be a deal breaker if this is actually true. No way would I pay more for a more delicate, when on the ground, construction. That is waaaayyyyy to big of a flaw for this to be the first mention of it.

Another thing that makes me believe that this is not true, is that this stuff seems to be near impossible to tear as shown in the "weight supporting on a pre-made cut" demonstrations. If a tear won't propagate, how could it be more susceptible to punctures/cutting.

It would be nice if OR would chime in on this one.
These users thanked the author Matteo V for the post:
iriejohn (Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:43 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

Sun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:03 am
Local Beach: Tybee Island
Favorite Beaches: Cape Town
Gear: 15m Chrono V2
12m Hyperlink
12m, 10m, 8m Dice (2018)
10m Roca V2
6m Alana (2016)
Naish Stomp 142
Nobile XTR
Nobile Zen Split Foil Board
Zeeko Blaster, Spitfire (Normal & XLW)
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Sun » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:41 pm

A material’s ability to withstand tearing and punctures are not intrinsically related.

If you have a loosely woven cloth made of fiber with very high tensile strength (Like Kevlar or Spectra/Dyneema), you will probably find it hard to tear, but a point will pass the weave easily. Think of opening the weave on a braided line for splicing.

I am assuming that Aluula has a very open weave to achieve the light weight per unit area, with a membrane between the fibers to close the cloth. This would be contrary to the tighter weave we know in Dacron.

Basically, I think Aluula uses stronger fibers to resist tearing and provide tensile strength, but uses fewer of them to keep the weight down. Punctures are more likely through the fabric due to the open weave.

I am sure that LE bumpers will keep the fabric lifted from the surface in most cases.
These users thanked the author Sun for the post:
nixmatters (Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:14 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

nixmatters
Frequent Poster
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:38 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Style: freeride. started foiling, not there yet
Gear: mostly custom made
Brand Affiliation: None currently
Has thanked: 160 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby nixmatters » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm

Finally someone with a good and logical explanation ^^^ ;)

The looser weave of Aluula is well visible and easy to count in the very first video leaked out by gleiten.tv.

And when we talk about puncture resistance, we need to clearly distinguish between
- puncture from fine 'needle like' object, normally causing small air leakage and easy to repair (patch the bladder)
- cuts in the material by glass, etc. causing material tear (if big enough)
- LE explosion caused by tomahawking the kite in water or on land.
In the first case I assume conventional dacron will be better. In the other 2 - the Aluula.

Dacron has a very tight weave and a melamine resin coating that makes it so stiff (esp. in bias), which is the very reason for its low tear strength. The resin matrix keeps the single yarns from slipping and they break one by one.

ALUULA on the countrary has a loose weave with (apparently) softer coating, which in the case of tear allows the yarns to shift/slip and act like a ripstop - clearly visible in the videos where people are trying to tear it with bare hands. Ironically, the more you try to tear it, the stronger it gets.

Aluula bias stiffness I assume comes from the high modulus of the yarn used, i.e. when warp and weave are tensioned (inflated LE) to the point where the residual elongation of the weave+yarn come close to its anyway low maximum (3% vs ~10% for HT polyester), the bias elongation of the relative open weave increases dramatically.

Graphene function in Aluula has nothing to do with fiber tensile strength, modulus or elongation. It is there to make the coating possible. Just a nano powder added to the liquid UHMWPE (I guess) before fiber extrusion (gell spinning).

I have no involvement in this development and haven't had a chance yet to see or touch the material. It's basic material knowledge and logic.
These users thanked the author nixmatters for the post:
Donniehall14 (Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:25 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2062
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 141 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:38 pm

The last two posts are excellent explanations. Thank you very much for that.

Seems there is cause for concern on durability with this new material.

Faxie
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:39 pm
Local Beach: Netherlands. Maasvlakte, Slufter, Domburg, Brouwersdam, Ouddorp, Vrouwenpolder, Grevelingen.
Style: Freeride, freestyle, wave.
Gear: Crazyfly mostly
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Faxie » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:04 pm

nixmatters wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm
Finally someone with a good and logical explanation ^^^ ;)

The looser weave of Aluula is well visible and easy to count in the very first video leaked out by gleiten.tv.

And when we talk about puncture resistance, we need to clearly distinguish between
- puncture from fine 'needle like' object, normally causing small air leakage and easy to repair (patch the bladder)
- cuts in the material by glass, etc. causing material tear (if big enough)
- LE explosion caused by tomahawking the kite in water or on land.
In the first case I assume conventional dacron will be better. In the other 2 - the Aluula.

Dacron has a very tight weave and a melamine resin coating that makes it so stiff (esp. in bias), which is the very reason for its low tear strength. The resin matrix keeps the single yarns from slipping and they break one by one.

ALUULA on the countrary has a loose weave with (apparently) softer coating, which in the case of tear allows the yarns to shift/slip and act like a ripstop - clearly visible in the videos where people are trying to tear it with bare hands. Ironically, the more you try to tear it, the stronger it gets.

Aluula bias stiffness I assume comes from the high modulus of the yarn used, i.e. when warp and weave are tensioned (inflated LE) to the point where the residual elongation of the weave+yarn come close to its anyway low maximum (3% vs ~10% for HT polyester), the bias elongation of the relative open weave increases dramatically.

Graphene function in Aluula has nothing to do with fiber tensile strength, modulus or elongation. It is there to make the coating possible. Just a nano powder added to the liquid UHMWPE (I guess) before fiber extrusion (gell spinning).

I have no involvement in this development and haven't had a chance yet to see or touch the material. It's basic material knowledge and logic.
Agreed.

Also, HMWPE is very slippery, so even more than with polyester you'll need that coating to keep all the fibers in place. Coating does little for individual fiber strength, but it does add to cloth strength.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 142 guests