kite loop radius for gybe to toe

[Kamikuza]

Here is the Duotone Academy tutorial on the Foiling Gybe. They advise to start turning your kite and then carve your turn (at 2:30 and 3:08).
They also have two more basic gybing videos and again they say to steer your kite and then begin your turn.



CG

Oh that so clearly shows that the kite is getting further around to the new tack than the board is -- kite leads board.

[Horst Sergio]

I think you are right - some of us talk about when we can see the kite turning, others talk about when you give the input to the bar, two completely different things, also dependant on many other factors (the delay)

Maybe the most important point in the whole discussion

Apart from that while I like a lot what duotone actually produces as wingfoils which I bought and some of their prototypes I sometimes are allowed to test, ... I have to say:

Duotone / old North / Boards and More is absolute 0 - Reference when talking about kite foiling technics,
as you see in all their videos and when you just try to remember what they tried to sell as "foils" in the years 2015 - 2018 !

On the other hand I would strictly recommend to listen to somebody who has more hours experience in just teaching foilkiting than all duotone riders have in riding, his name is:

"Gunnar" !

[purdyd]

The point of sending the kite up first is to use the geometry to your advantage, especially in light wind, to keep tension on the lines, board speed and space for the kite to loop and build speed. Good for any kind of kite

I fundamentally treat a downloop gybe in a surfboard, twin tip, or foil the same. I loop the with or with raising it. Sometimes down low.

Raising the kite gives you an energy advantage as you can have s longer downstroke.

It also allows you to loop it high or sheet out and make a wider slow turn both of which can be handy if it is windier.

Yes, #2 (pivot turn) is a really good strategy, it is IMO the only way to jibe foiling in marginal winds, head high upwind at low speed, commit to the board turn while the kite flies around (down or up, I prefer up as less risk).

Peter,

I think what I am finding when it is really light, not heading upwind as much as for a pivot, and starting the loop with the bar well in advance of turning downwind, often this is slightly sheet out to avoid stalling,, and making a compact but not to tight turn, with a wide loop is very effective .

I think it produces the most energy and keeps you on foil.

There is definitely more risk with any type of downloop as you mention.

[jumptheshark]

Was out yesterday in 15-20 kn. Gybing almost exclusively to try and see the other side of this debate. In plenty of wind, there is no rhyme or reason. I can throw the kite and follow it. Carve the board and make the kite catch up. Have the two in sync. All three happen.

I get that carving onto the other tack to pull the kite into it's loop avoids a potential stall on the other side. Probably more important to those in light wind. If I'm doing it "wrong" so be it.

Back on page 1 I tried to pass on the approach that got me a long way. Don’t look at the kite, don't look at the board. I Look where I’m going and sometimes can’t verify what is leading in the way we are trying to do with video or the Duotone pic. I learned a sequence of events that worked until they were automatic. Refined the timing until they worked really well. It gets easy to mess with timing later, but at first It was pretty robotic. Step one was always kite input. If I passed the kite or it passed me I didn’t really notice. It was always bar input that started the sequence. The timing was about getting the carve to fit with the power surge/drop my kite input was meant to achieve as it changes tack. Success came when I learned to pilot the kite all the way through its flight plan and "follow" through definitively with the board. It all got easier (for every transition) when I could put all that together into a pretty quick sequence and translate the timing involved for a simple heel to toe tack to say a toe back to heel tack on the other side. They are very different body positions, but the timing is pretty similar and clueing into the timing was THE Eureeka moment for me. I never dragged my kite into the turn. I guess I just got good at avoiding the stall on exit with my line and how fast the kite finished the loop. Though I could do the carve first yesterday, its a pretty rare one for me. I might turn tight on something and decide to make that a gybe, so the kite follows, but most often I have decided to gybe well before that and I crank the bar to start it off.

So, Gunnar is of course right, I hope, this is his profession. But I can also see why Duotone published it their way in the vid.

The sequence feels like kite, then board, hence the sensation of following the kite. In reality I was following the power, and the kite may be actually pointing in a variety of directions and not technically ahead of my board. In the Duotone pic it is pretty clear that the kite deviates from straight line travel before the board. It also leaves straight line flight into a constant and full arc that finishes on the other tack. I'll leave it up to people with protractors to figure out the nitty gritty of which is leading the move at any given moment, but the firing sequence of kite then board works nicely for me.

[OzBungy]

I haven't read this thread, because it's too long and probably all wrong.

If you're asking for a recipe for doing a gybe then you're approaching it from the wrong perspective. You have to develop the feel for the movement then do whatever it takes to make it work in the conditions of the moment with your gear and your body.

No matter what you think is the "correct way" of doing things you will end up in circumstances where everything is completely wrong and out of whack. In those cases you need to intuitively react and provide the proper inputs.

Sometimes you need to do a coordinated turn of the kite and board. Sometimes the board goes first. Sometimes the kite goes first. Sometimes the kite goes over the top. Sometimes you do a downloop. Get out and experiment and work it out. Just make sure you have sufficient wind to relaunch easily.

There is possibly only one absolute certainty, in light winds you priority is to maintain tension on the lines. Let the lines go slack and you're going to be swimming in. You need to do a tight turn on the board and a kite turn that is aggressive enough to have the kite moving in the new direction with some speed. For me that means cutting hard upwind, coming almost to a stop, flicking the kite in the new direction, and rotating the board.

If I have a choice I prefer to avoid downloops in very light winds. If you make a mistake it can be harder to turn the kite away from the water before it hits. Sometimes you have no choice and a downloop is the automatic reaction to stop whatever stupid thing the kite is doing.

[windmaker]

I think you are right - some of us talk about when we can see the kite turning, others talk about when you give the input to the bar, two completely different things, also dependant on many other factors (the delay)

Maybe the most important point in the whole discussion

Apart from that while I like a lot what duotone actually produces as wingfoils which I bought and some of their prototypes I sometimes are allowed to test, ... I have to say:

Duotone / old North / Boards and More is absolute 0 - Reference when talking about kite foiling technics,
as you see in all their videos and when you just try to remember what they tried to sell as "foils" in the years 2015 - 2018 !

On the other hand I would strictly recommend to listen to somebody who has more hours experience in just teaching foilkiting than all duotone riders have in riding, his name is:

"Gunnar" !

Couldn't say it better! They should start by making decent foils and then start talking about how to use them not the other way round. Blind leading the blind...

[purdyd]

. but the firing sequence of kite then board works nicely for me.

I believe the most common problem when people learn to gybe is that they get to the point where they complete the turn but drop off plane because the kite is behind them.

That is because it is scary to commit the kite to a turn. And it is often in light wind (because foiling is scary) with big kites (because you are not very efficient yet).

In which case I think the visualization of lead with the kite is effective as it encourages you to get the kite around.

If by lead with the board, Gunnar means the nose of the board points ahead of the kite, I think he is correct.

That to me would encourage you to turn fhe board faster, tighter and would be an effective visualization if you have the problem where you are part way through the turn and run out of power because the kite is too far ahead.

I’m sure that happened to me while I was learning to gybe.

I was hoping Gunnar would come back to this discussion. Perhaps with a video which I know can take a bit of effort and time to produce. I think that would clarify his teaching point.

[tomtom]

Guys just go riding. No way there is something more from these discussion. Try write manual how to get shoe lace tied. Written words are sometimes not enough.

[jaros]

Guys just go riding. No way there is something more from these discussion. Try write manual how to get shoe lace tied. Written words are sometimes not enough.