Surfboard weight

[jumptheshark]

What problem? Not saying we haven’t all been convinced by Matteo but how is the volume of your average, say 22-25 L board of detriment? I think the kite let’s you get away with a tiny board that most cannot otherwise paddle, so yeah a kite let’s you shed excess volume, but why is a thinner board any better?

Many of us quite like a convex deck in a surfboard some bottom shaping and a full rail. 2.1” is pretty thin. Pretty much just enough to allow for adequate shape, strength and flex with relatively simple construction. I’m not sure I see the problem that an even thinner board solves. Is durability the issue? There have been pretty strong boards in the 5 and 6 lb range for well over a decade.

As to simply planning... with the emergence of foiling the bottom threshold for a surfboard doesn’t have to make sacrifices for efficiency. The only surfboard I want now is a relative power pig. Rocker while on a wave is well worth it.

Like any board, the utmost in efficiency is usually a lame ride. Foil, surfboard or TT, the most fun ones sacrifice some efficiency quite on purpose to achieve the desired ride.

[Matteo V]

What problem? Not saying we haven’t all been convinced by Matteo but how is the volume of your average, say 22-25 L board of detriment? I think the kite let’s you get away with a tiny board that most cannot otherwise paddle, so yeah a kite let’s you shed excess volume, but why is a thinner board any better?

DEAD ON, JUMPY!!! That is where my argument gets a bit murky. And here is the best way to pick apart my argument.

If you can ride an SUP (up to double the volume of your displacement/weight), and you can ride a zero volume board, what is wrong with just a bit of volume that makes your foot a few more cm away from the planing surface of the board?

My only answer to that is another thought experiment that could actually be carried out in a physical way:
Take a regular 28l kitesurfboard and double the height so you get double the volume to 56l. Again, this higher volume board has the same footprint/rocker/length/width, but it has more height to give it double the volume. Evenly distribute this volume by doubling the thickness from the tail to the nose. Now, what does that do??? Obviously the fins and rails have more leverage over the riders feet as the lever arm is longer. Especially in the tail, where all boards are kept thin, the board will be overall less controllable. With this experiment, you can show that holding volume lower is beneficial to control and overall performance.

Next, make the same board with half of the volume of the original to 14l. Again, we are just halving the height but keeping the footprint/rocker/length/width the same. Now what does that do??? Obviously you have some degree more control over the fins and the planing surface as the lever arm is shorter for the rails and fins to act on the riders feet. With this board, it is reasonable to assume (as I have actually experienced) that there is no loss of performance, and most likely some gain.

Thus while I cannot say for sure that less volume will make a difference for you (riding style, skill, conditions, are much more of a factor), there is no real reason to have volume, AND there is a potential for higher performance without as much volume as is fashionable in current kitesurfboard design.

So to answer your specific question, less volume should equate to more control and capabilities of the board, if you have the skill/approach to use it.

Many of us quite like a convex deck in a surfboard some bottom shaping and a full rail. 2.25” is pretty thin. Pretty much just enough to allow for adequate shape, strength and flex with relatively simple construction. I’m not sure I see the problem that an even thinner board solves. Is durability the issue? There have been pretty strong boards in the 5 and 6 lb range for well over a decade.

To me, fuller rails with the same bottom shape kind of just feel "draggy" and soft. This is a good thing when trying to slow down on a wave. But thinner, and still round, rails bite better while still handling chop. The main difference is that thinner soft rails are just not as slow. This is another basis for why it became so obvious to me that volume distribution ("surfboard foil") was only needed to stick the volume where it was going to help the most and hurt the least. The fullness of the rails is more of a cross sectional "surfboard foil" - just a way to keep the volume high enough without having to make the nose bigger or the tail thicker.

But the original post was about surfboard weight. For prone surfing weight is a huge consideration. More weight makes the board less snappy and slower to react to inputs. In strapless kitesurfing, SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THE STRAPS ARE NOT THERE, the ability to have a board with very little inertia (resistance to your inputs) is also extremely important - maybe even more so than prone surfing. Higher speeds just plain equate to higher forces, as evidenced by the short lifespan of a strapless kitesurfboard compared to a prone surfboard. And not being connected to the board with straps means that only the force of friction for pad riders, and only stickiness for waxed decks, is resisting these high forces. This is also evidenced by just watching a strapless vs strapped rider - the strapless rider is much more smoothed out with more methodical preparation for occasional quick movements. But the most important consideration for strapless boards being light weight is that they need to stick to your feet for aerial maneuvers. Too much momentum in a board on a rotation, and it flies off on its own. Lighter boards do much better at using just a bit of wind, thus sticking to the riders feet without relying on punt wax.

Now for a strapped board, weight is not as much of a concern. Given the straps solid connection to the board, more weight actually can help in choppy jibe situations and just going through chop. Given that strapped kitesurfing puts the highest load possible on a surfboard (a strapless board just gets ripped off), worrying about a bit (or lots) more weight is not as big a deal as durability is. Thus thinner boards with heavier construction can provide some increase in performance by getting the feet closer to the planing surface, increasing the durability with more glass, but sacrificing some weight. So you are gaining in 2 things and losing on 1. So to sum up this paragraph, it may make sense for you to have a thinner board with more weight if you are riding strapped.

As to simply planning... with the emergence of foiling the bottom threshold for a surfboard doesn’t have to make sacrifices for efficiency. The only surfboard I want now is a relative power pig. Rocker while on a wave is well worth it.

Like any board, the utmost in efficiency is usually a lame ride. Foil, surfboard or TT, the most fun ones sacrifice some efficiency quite on purpose to achieve the desired ride.

No question - to each their own. Comfort is also a consideration if you want to ride for a full 4 -5hour session. Pushing around a heavy board can be taxing, but sometimes a light weight board snapping on you can be just as taxing.

[longwhitecloud]

thicker rails are drag on waves (slow), and also slip out on steep big waves

thicker boards also dont let you bury the tail

i hate thicker kite surfboards with a kite, they suck.

But if you don't ride above average waves - i wouldnt be too worried about all this.

[BigZ]

What problem? Not saying we haven’t all been convinced by Matteo but how is the volume of your average, say 22-25 L board of detriment? I think the kite let’s you get away with a tiny board that most cannot otherwise paddle, so yeah a kite let’s you shed excess volume, but why is a thinner board any better?

+1

[purdyd]

If you look at the evolution of kite surfboards, it didn’t get there overnight.

The Peter Trow directional was a pretty popular in the day 15 years ago, and a relatively thin board. I know Doyle still makes a thin board,

We also rode surfboards dragged out of the attic or the used rack with drywall screws to attach straps or strapless, twin tips were all the rage of a bit in the waves Mutants, really small surfboards,

A lot of things were tried and we sort of evolved into this small surfboard size as mainstream.

A 24 liter board still has a significant amount of flotation that if you didn’t have would have to come from the kite. So during transitions or stalling on the shoulder, where you can slide into that transition zone between planing and displacement, I appreciate that volume.

That means I can get away with a smaller kite, or perhaps simply kite.

I don’t feel that standing 2” or so higher is a performance detriment.

There seems to be some construction benefits to thin boards which can have higher density materials versus the eggshell surfboard construction.

I’ve noticed wakesurf boards seem to be a thin construction these days.

thicker boards also dont let you bury the tai

That might lead to the conclusion that volume has more impact than we expect even when powered

As far as board weight, I’ve always appreciated lighter, especially with straps because I can pump the board and be more aggressive with it.

A similar design change, which also faced lots of resistance - losing the pointy nose of surfboards, is due to kitesurfboards just not needing it. But those pointy noses still sell because some people still think you need them. So in the end, the false assumptions of people who are looking at board design through the prone surfing "lens", shape the market offerings and reinforce those false assumptions

.

I’ve been through spoons and no nose and have one of the trendy short no nose boards, the surfboard noses are still needed. Coming down a steep top to bottom break or punching out through the whitewater.

Think about standing on a submerged beach ball in the waves - pretty unstable right? All of your energy goes into not falling over and the beach ball shooting up out of the water and into the air/away from you. Now think about removing most of the air from the beach ball......More stable right? Less "shooty" up out of water and into the air???

Presumably you want to rise out of the water and whether it is buoyancy that raises you or hydrodynamic lift, you are still going to need to balance on top of that force.

“It comes down to personal preference. It’s more important to take volume and board design into account than the length of the board when looking at Tomo models and we often find people moving to smaller lengths eventually.

I would certainly agree with that. Typical metric of length doesn’t apply but since boards roughly the same thickness, equal volume boards will be close in planing area and that is at least a start in comparing.

Because I agree that kitesurfing is predominantly a planing sport.

But I have been up and down the size and volume ladder and to me it is an advantage to have 20-24 liters on a surfboard.

I also like light boards, on the water and in the air.

[omg]

I have several boards, and as I wrote my strapless freestyle board is 1” thick, and it has noticeably the best board feel from my boards. You are better connected to the water with thinner board. End of story.

[BigZ]

I have several boards, and as I wrote my strapless freestyle board is 1” thick, and it has noticeably the best board feel from my boards. You are better connected to the water with thinner board. End of story.

Until you get caught inside ...

[longwhitecloud]

until the waves get pretty big, the wsl surfers all want to be on the lowest volume, smallest thinest board they can be on that lets them still catch waves. Some are actually surfing 23l boards.

All depends on the conditions of course. If you live where the wind and waves are pretty average - ride anything to get your wave count up.. ignore all this talk!

i have about 12 surfboards, right board for the right day . nearly always about the paddling situation for regular surfers.

for kiters it is all about what we are dealing with on the day without having to worry about paddling.

i tend to ride a 4'10 kiting (regular performance shape) 2" thick - literally a grom board! i kite a regular 6' 18 1/2 2 1/4 sometimes if marginal but just gets out of control sometimes

still learning though. Right board for your weight, ability, style and conditions.

you really got find out for yourself - the number of people giving out advice that have only ridden of a handful of shapes is not really helpful.

[Matteo V]

I have several boards, and as I wrote my strapless freestyle board is 1” thick, and it has noticeably the best board feel from my boards. You are better connected to the water with thinner board. End of story.

Until you get caught inside ...

Could you elaborate on this a little from your perspective?

When riding a regular volume kitesurfboard, I feel that whitewater "grabs" it more in the rails and the deck. This is pretty evident in that a high volume board will have a thicker cross section in all axis. Thinner boards have less of a cross section presented to the whitewater, and thus get pushed around less. Also, a board that sinks more can ride under the whitewater at the boundary layer where there is more "solid surface", as opposed to the top which is violently swirling half water/half air.

And coming to a complete stop in whitewater is suicide. No one does this. No matter the board, from TT to SUP board, forward motion in whitewater is the key to staying upright. With that forward movement, volume is no longer providing buoyancy, because the volume is not submerged. And once again, I would argue that the second you become submerged in the whitewater, you want to get down to the boundary layer where the water is mostly water, and not turbulent half water/half air. Yes, 90 percent of the time I am going over the top of the whitewater - but WITH SPEED!

I actually would say that the worst place to have volume is on the inside in the wash.

[Matteo V]

If you look at the evolution of kite surfboards, it didn’t get there overnight.

The Peter Trow directional was a pretty popular in the day 15 years ago, and a relatively thin board. I know Doyle still makes a thin board,

Ya, but they are ugly, and they don't make you look like a "real surfer". Heck, I have even had kids (and adults) come up to me while I was just setting up but had not pumped up a kite, and they enthusiastically ask if they could watch me surf. Then when they would look closer at the board, they would say. "oh, that is not a real surfboard". And they are right! Then I put up the kite and give them 1000times the show they would have got watching me surf. The whole time, even after, the board gets none of the recognition that it deserves for it's contribution to the show FOR NOT BEING A FRIKIN PRONE SURFBOARD.

A 24 liter board still has a significant amount of flotation ( ) that if you didn’t have would have to come from the kite. So during transitions or stalling on the shoulder, where you can slide into that transition zone between planing and displacement, I appreciate that volume.

That means I can get away with a smaller kite, or perhaps simply kite.

I need to take a class at Hogwarts to learn how to use the force so I can make surfers understand this. THERE IS NO FLOTATION (BUOYANCY) UNLESS THE VOLUME IS SUBMERGED!!! Every bit of force comes from planing forces when you are at or above 2-3knots of water speed! Seriously, "where you can slide into that transition zone between planing and displacement"????? - ONLY IF YOU HAVE WATER COVERING THE DECK ARE YOU UTILIZING THE FULL VOLUME FOR BOUYANCY!!!! I feel like I am a broken record here. I am sure some of you feel the same (say it again and you are the broken record).

If you understand my point above, then you may be able to understand this - the principle difference between kitesurfing and prone surfing is that the kite generates your forward motion, where as in prone surfing forward motion comes from hand paddling to a speed that you can utilize a waves energy to get up to full planing speeds and then stand up. Both methods goal is to provide a minimum speed to where the plaining forces take over and the board is no longer "floating". You don't "float" a wave, you plane across it. You don't float a kitesurfboard, you plane across the water with it. And you do not "float" a TT, because just like a shortboard prone surfboard, a kitesurfboard, it sinks when you stand on top of it!

Anyone that says that coming to a complete stop, sinking the board, and that this is useful in actually riding when you have a kite, is full of s--t. Slappysan, I believe, has a great video of him demonstrating this. He actually drops to less than 1knot, depowers the kite, sinks the board, struggles on it, then powers up the kite to ride away again. During this time he is stopped, he has no direction control, and the board is tippy as heck. It is a nice trick......that has nothing to do with actually riding a wave.

If kitesurfers are actually stopping and sinking their boards on purpose (and to a benefit), then riding away after using the kite to power them again, I have been missing it for more than 10 years.

I don’t feel that standing 2” or so higher is a performance detriment.

How about another 2 inches higher? Or 4??? ok that is getting ridiculous and we all know the board would be uncontrollable. But if you gain control over the planing surface by getting closer to it, WHY NOT GET AS CLOSE TO IT AS YOU CAN???.........Well???? Because you would be riding a board that no longer resembles that which you are trying to simulate.

I’ve noticed wakesurf boards seem to be a thin construction these days.

You can ride an SUP board on a wake too. But what kind of board has the highest performance on a stable wake that you don't need to have buoyancy to paddle onto to ride??? Thin wakesurfboards!!! NO VOLUME NEEDED!!!

thicker boards also dont let you bury the tai

That might lead to the conclusion that volume has more impact than we expect even when powered

BAM! There is a huge impact in performance with more volume because it stops you from doing some things! You said it!

Think about standing on a submerged beach ball in the waves - pretty unstable right? All of your energy goes into not falling over and the beach ball shooting up out of the water and into the air/away from you. Now think about removing most of the air from the beach ball......More stable right? Less "shooty" up out of water and into the air???

Presumably you want to rise out of the water and whether it is buoyancy that raises you or hydrodynamic lift, you are still going to need to balance on top of that force.

First off, if I sink in the water, I typically fall back so I don't fall forward. Then I dive the kite and waterstart.

If I only sink a little bit (20cm or so)? I don't actually do that at any time, except to get below the whitewater.....in which case I do not want more cross sectional area (volume) because that just gets the board beat around more. And whitewater is mostly air so it would not provide any usable buoyancy anyway. BUT, white water is moving, and that is what makes whitewater easy to get up on top of. Even if you are standing still for a split second on a jibe, whitewater will blast underneath you and provide a planing force to get you up. Again, volume does nothing in this situation.

But there is one situation where I do sink the board. But that is in a tide pool, and I sink my board all the way to the bottom and stand on it. My fin boxes are bolt ons, and the fins are cheap and thick enough to never have broken on me (wouldn't matter if they did). With more volume, it is harder to do this stupid move for 2 reasons. First, as a high volume board sinks, it becomes "corky" underneath me like a beach ball. But a low volume board goes down at about the same speed without becoming wobbly. Second, as I go to ride away, the low volume board releases from the bottom evenly and stays stable, whereas the high volume board gets unstable immediately upon release from the bottom. What I think is happening is that the low volume board just hits the bottom and stays there without movement. But the high volume board rocks back and forth, thus working it's way into the sand and eventually "vacuuming" to the bottom. Either way, it sucks to be on a high volume board in this situation.

I’ve been through spoons and no nose and have one of the trendy short no nose boards, the surfboard noses are still needed. Coming down a steep top to bottom break or punching out through the whitewater.

If you are doing a good job of simulating the limitations of prone surfing while you are kitesurfing, then the pointy nose is an advantage - to almost a necessity. But if you use just a teeny-tiny tug from the kite at some key points in the wave ride such as:

1. When you need a bit more speed on the face - instead of moving forward on the board, let the kite pull you just a bit and keep your feet in the same spot, which keeps the nose up
2. When you run out of speed at the bottom for any reason, use a bit of a tug on the lines so you don't have to miss out on staying in the pocket on your next cut up the face.

I am sure there are others you could come up with. But these are the two I can think of off the top of my head.

Again, if you want to simulate prone surfing and stick within those limitations, then you will need that nose. But if you really want maximize the performance envelope that having a kite connected to you and you on a surfboard too small to ever prone surf, then you don't need the nose.

As far as "no nose" boards being trendy - you have that backwards. No nose boards are maximum performance oriented to provide less swing weight for more responsiveness. Pointy nose boards are the trendy ones with a bit of a "nostalgia" stink to them. But they are great for simulating the limitations of prone surfing.

Because I agree that kitesurfing is predominantly a planing sport.

?"predominantly"? For real? What displacement hull is anyone actually riding in kiteboarding or kitesurfing, and has a goal of only traveling at displacement speeds for that hull? Kiteboarding/kitesurfing is 100% a planing sport. If you do not operate at planing speeds on a planing hull, or at planing speeds with a hydrofoil, you are doing something other than kiteboarding or kitesurfing. Heck, even prone surfing is a planing sport, that displaces only for as long as necessary to get up on a plane. And that is what makes kitesurfing so fun and easy - NO DISPLACEMENT MODE!