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Wing surf in waves, onshore?

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Adolfo
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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby Adolfo » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:27 pm

mr_daruman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:11 pm
Would like to try but...all these videos looks super fun just foil kiting...plenty of wind and waves and a smaller board to rip. I mean think about it.
They seem incredibly stoked flying slowly on a huge board, imagine having more speed control and turning sharper on a smaller foil board...
What happens when crashing in the breakers with a wing? These big foil boards have a leash, the wing has a leash...With a kite its super easy to kite loop and just body drag out of an impact zone.
Think of it this way:
Many, if not most, wingfoilers these days also kite foil, surf kite, etc.
In my case; I have19 years of kiting and 4 or 5 of kitefoiling experience.
We know exactly the advantages and disadvantages of a kite in any given condition. We know what you are talking about.
Also, when we get to the beach., we have the kites, surf and kitefoil boards and wingfoil equipment in the bed of the truck. We can pick any of them.
But we are choosing to go out with the wing and not with the kite.
There must be a reason…
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stevez
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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby stevez » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:18 am

I've been watching this space pretty closely. My local spot has onshore windswell. When it gets to 18-20 knots it starts to be fun to ride, and at 25 knots really fun. There are a few local wingfoilers who seem to know what they are doing. I've been watching them quite closely lately and how they are riding the swell. I'm riding the same waves with generally a smaller kite than the wing they are using. I've been on a cloud 2.8 (good from about 20 knots solid) with the wingfoilers generally on 4m ozones.

In onshore wind you are not normally riding straight onshore, but somewhat down the line in one direction or other. At times they are able to tuck the wing behind them and that is cool, but there is definitely quite a bit of manoeuvring of the wing when cutting across in the other direction, and this can be quite awkward. This is exactly what I'm seeing in the videos above like Gunnar's. Maybe with more time wingfoilers and their gear will get better and the awkwardness will go away.

In the same conditions I am able to fly the kite unpowered, but still keep it up, and loop occasionally when required especially when changing direction on a wave. Rarely do I need to get off a wave because the kite is falling, and I hardly ever drop the kite. And I have the benefit of riding a tiny pocketboard instead of a sup. In short, unless they're having more fun that it looks, I don't think they are having more fun than I am. But for sure, they are definitely having fun out there.

However I have no doubt in the value proposition of wingfoiling. Lately I've also been challenging myself in different locations and conditions, and I have found myself in situations where I have been a bit uncomfortable with the amount of risk. Specifically in going out in ocean swell where I might end up quite far out. If something goes wrong with the kite out there I don't have many options but a long swim, and my 85cm pocket board is of no use to me, whereas a bigger board like a sup could be pretty helpful. I suppose even a floaty prone foiling board would be preferable in that situation. Also there are conditions where I wouldn't even think of going out in a kite, but with a wing it could definitely be viable, specifically when it's offshore, with sketchy launches etc, and that's where the wing really shines.

I'm very open to experiment, and have been curious about the wing since it came out. In the end I've succumbed to this curiosity. Recently I got a great deal on a 5'5" 104l wavechaser SUP, nearly new for just over half price - so if I don't like it I can sell it and get my money back. That was the trigger to finally try this sport out, so I also pulled the trigger on a f-one swing 4.2. Yesterday I thought I'd try something I've always been curious about, flying a SUP with kite. In thought I'd get a feeling for the board with the more familiar means of propulsion. That was a big failure. Getting standing on a tiny SUP, managing a kite in the air, keeping standing and balanced on the board, diving the kite to get going is very, very hard! At least at my sup level. Being a bit underpowered didn't make it any easier. Nor does the fact that this board has a lousy excuse for a deckpad. But these are just excuses! My setup is actually able to float on its side, so a regular waterstart might have been an option if I wasn't underpowered.

Anyway the takehome was that sup plus kite doesn't really work. What's more, it was enough of a reality check that wingfoiling really is a different sport, with its own learning curve, which may be longer than I first thought. I'm hoping that the process of getting from kneeling to standing to riding is easier when holding a wing and the power of the wing provides some balance.

I can't say I'm not having my second thoughts about this - I'm probably going to have to give up a bunch of very fun 18-20 knot (which is what I thinks is probably good learning wind with the 4.2 wing) kitefoiling sessions on the 3.7 cloud to learn this sport! Anyway at least at the end I'll hopefully be able to answer the question posted by the OP for myself, first hand, and not have to take anyone else word for it! :)

I'll report back my findings if I have any!

Here's my setup, the board plus Cloud 9 X32 wing, which I haven't had much use for kiting.
IMG_20200222_154213.jpg
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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby slowboat » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:46 am

stevez wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:18 am
I've been watching this space pretty closely. My local spot has onshore windswell. When it gets to 18-20 knots it starts to be fun to ride, and at 25 knots really fun. There are a few local wingfoilers who seem to know what they are doing. I've been watching them quite closely lately and how they are riding the swell. I'm riding the same waves with generally a smaller kite than the wing they are using. I've been on a cloud 2.8 (good from about 20 knots solid) with the wingfoilers generally on 4m ozones.

In onshore wind you are not normally riding straight onshore, but somewhat down the line in one direction or other. At times they are able to tuck the wing behind them and that is cool, but there is definitely quite a bit of manoeuvring of the wing when cutting across in the other direction, and this can be quite awkward. This is exactly what I'm seeing in the videos above like Gunnar's. Maybe with more time wingfoilers and their gear will get better and the awkwardness will go away.

In the same conditions I am able to fly the kite unpowered, but still keep it up, and loop occasionally when required especially when changing direction on a wave. Rarely do I need to get off a wave because the kite is falling, and I hardly ever drop the kite. And I have the benefit of riding a tiny pocketboard instead of a sup. In short, unless they're having more fun that it looks, I don't think they are having more fun than I am. But for sure, they are definitely having fun out there.

However I have no doubt in the value proposition of wingfoiling. Lately I've also been challenging myself in different locations and conditions, and I have found myself in situations where I have been a bit uncomfortable with the amount of risk. Specifically in going out in ocean swell where I might end up quite far out. If something goes wrong with the kite out there I don't have many options but a long swim, and my 85cm pocket board is of no use to me, whereas a bigger board like a sup could be pretty helpful. I suppose even a floaty prone foiling board would be preferable in that situation. Also there are conditions where I wouldn't even think of going out in a kite, but with a wing it could definitely be viable, specifically when it's offshore, with sketchy launches etc, and that's where the wing really shines.

I'm very open to experiment, and have been curious about the wing since it came out. In the end I've succumbed to this curiosity. Recently I got a great deal on a 5'5" 104l wavechaser SUP, nearly new for just over half price - so if I don't like it I can sell it and get my money back. That was the trigger to finally try this sport out, so I also pulled the trigger on a f-one swing 4.2. Yesterday I thought I'd try something I've always been curious about, flying a SUP with kite. In thought I'd get a feeling for the board with the more familiar means of propulsion. That was a big failure. Getting standing on a tiny SUP, managing a kite in the air, keeping standing and balanced on the board, diving the kite to get going is very, very hard! At least at my sup level. Being a bit underpowered didn't make it any easier. Nor does the fact that this board has a lousy excuse for a deckpad. But these are just excuses! My setup is actually able to float on its side, so a regular waterstart might have been an option if I wasn't underpowered.

Anyway the takehome was that sup plus kite doesn't really work. What's more, it was enough of a reality check that wingfoiling really is a different sport, with its own learning curve, which may be longer than I first thought. I'm hoping that the process of getting from kneeling to standing to riding is easier when holding a wing and the power of the wing provides some balance.

I can't say I'm not having my second thoughts about this - I'm probably going to have to give up a bunch of very fun 18-20 knot (which is what I thinks is probably good learning wind with the 4.2 wing) kitefoiling sessions on the 3.7 cloud to learn this sport! Anyway at least at the end I'll hopefully be able to answer the question posted by the OP for myself, first hand, and not have to take anyone else word for it! :)

I'll report back my findings if I have any!

Here's my setup, the board plus Cloud 9 X32 wing, which I haven't had much use for kiting.

IMG_20200222_154213.jpg
Great report. Many of us can relate to where you were....until the point of buying the SUP board. So please report back after some experience with the wing. Thanks

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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby drsurf » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:37 pm

stevez wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:18 am
I've been watching this space pretty closely. My local spot has onshore windswell. When it gets to 18-20 knots it starts to be fun to ride, and at 25 knots really fun. There are a few local wingfoilers who seem to know what they are doing. I've been watching them quite closely lately and how they are riding the swell. I'm riding the same waves with generally a smaller kite than the wing they are using. I've been on a cloud 2.8 (good from about 20 knots solid) with the wingfoilers generally on 4m ozones.

In onshore wind you are not normally riding straight onshore, but somewhat down the line in one direction or other. At times they are able to tuck the wing behind them and that is cool, but there is definitely quite a bit of manoeuvring of the wing when cutting across in the other direction, and this can be quite awkward. This is exactly what I'm seeing in the videos above like Gunnar's. Maybe with more time wingfoilers and their gear will get better and the awkwardness will go away.

In the same conditions I am able to fly the kite unpowered, but still keep it up, and loop occasionally when required especially when changing direction on a wave. Rarely do I need to get off a wave because the kite is falling, and I hardly ever drop the kite. And I have the benefit of riding a tiny pocketboard instead of a sup. In short, unless they're having more fun that it looks, I don't think they are having more fun than I am. But for sure, they are definitely having fun out there.

However I have no doubt in the value proposition of wingfoiling. Lately I've also been challenging myself in different locations and conditions, and I have found myself in situations where I have been a bit uncomfortable with the amount of risk. Specifically in going out in ocean swell where I might end up quite far out. If something goes wrong with the kite out there I don't have many options but a long swim, and my 85cm pocket board is of no use to me, whereas a bigger board like a sup could be pretty helpful. I suppose even a floaty prone foiling board would be preferable in that situation. Also there are conditions where I wouldn't even think of going out in a kite, but with a wing it could definitely be viable, specifically when it's offshore, with sketchy launches etc, and that's where the wing really shines.

I'm very open to experiment, and have been curious about the wing since it came out. In the end I've succumbed to this curiosity. Recently I got a great deal on a 5'5" 104l wavechaser SUP, nearly new for just over half price - so if I don't like it I can sell it and get my money back. That was the trigger to finally try this sport out, so I also pulled the trigger on a f-one swing 4.2. Yesterday I thought I'd try something I've always been curious about, flying a SUP with kite. In thought I'd get a feeling for the board with the more familiar means of propulsion. That was a big failure. Getting standing on a tiny SUP, managing a kite in the air, keeping standing and balanced on the board, diving the kite to get going is very, very hard! At least at my sup level. Being a bit underpowered didn't make it any easier. Nor does the fact that this board has a lousy excuse for a deckpad. But these are just excuses! My setup is actually able to float on its side, so a regular waterstart might have been an option if I wasn't underpowered.

Anyway the takehome was that sup plus kite doesn't really work. What's more, it was enough of a reality check that wingfoiling really is a different sport, with its own learning curve, which may be longer than I first thought. I'm hoping that the process of getting from kneeling to standing to riding is easier when holding a wing and the power of the wing provides some balance.

I can't say I'm not having my second thoughts about this - I'm probably going to have to give up a bunch of very fun 18-20 knot (which is what I thinks is probably good learning wind with the 4.2 wing) kitefoiling sessions on the 3.7 cloud to learn this sport! Anyway at least at the end I'll hopefully be able to answer the question posted by the OP for myself, first hand, and not have to take anyone else word for it! :)

I'll report back my findings if I have any!

Here's my setup, the board plus Cloud 9 X32 wing, which I haven't had much use for kiting.

IMG_20200222_154213.jpg
I'm in somewhat the same position as stevez. Just substitute a Flysurfer Peak4 kite for the Cloud. I've already got a 120 litre SUP foil board and have tried the kite on a SUP experience. Same result as stevez, SUP + kite doesn't work. It did in my head, but real life is much tougher :(

Onshore winds with a Peak4 kite, pocket board and a good surf foil isn't too hard, just wait for a break in the sets and enough depth and you're away. With the lightweight and incredible drift of the Peak4 you can ride the onshore waves even in light wind. If you come off in the impact zone the Peak4 will keep flying even when you get pushed towards the kite. I do have concerns doing this with a wingsurfer SUP combo as the power from a kite will drag you out of trouble and the thought of a good SUP, foil and wingding being rolled through the impact zone along with me ... someone or something may get damaged :(

Like stevez there is a local wing surfer who is quite good, but on a recent good windy day with myself on a 3m Peak4, pocket board and surf foil and the wingsurfer on a small foil SUP + 4m wingding, it seemed like I was having all the fun. With a small board, small kite and surf foil I was far more manoeuvrable, faster, slower (when I felt like it), found more waves and didn't fall off. However so easy is this combo that one can feel a bit lazy and the wing surfer does look a lot more physical.

Anyway I have a 4m wing surfer as well which I've only tried once in less than ideal conditions. I am interested in a setup as stevez has described where you can go further offshore and easily paddle back should the wind die. With a downed Peak4 and tiny board there's not a lot to paddle in on.
I hope not to waste good kiting days however going down this path. I'll try the days when the wind is the wrong direction for kiting from the usual launch sites but good access sites for a wingsurfer.
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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby Flyboy » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:10 am

The conditions I see where wing foiling would make sense is to access a shoreline where launch a kite is difficult or impossible. I have such a spot about 100 metres from my house - because of a wind shadow launching a kite is often impossible. However, if it requires 20 knots to have fun on a wingsurfer - not to mention (yet another) steep learning curve, I'm not sure I would be up for it.

Gong have a new video which makes wing foiling look pretty appealing:


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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby juandesooka » Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:50 am

Yes you will have to give up a bunch of 20kt kites sessions to get competent on wing. It may eventually be a light wind option but that won't come til later. Like using the 3m cloud in 20kt... doesn't work until you're expert.

I see the wings benefit as more an add-on to sup foiling than a replacement for kite foiling. The dream is to foilsurf waves with zero kite/wing impact. If not, then may as well kite. (Except for restricted kite launch areas)

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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby slowboat » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:58 pm

Some of the different opinions here may be due to differences in what we mean by wave foiling. No matter how great the kite is, there will be a point at which a kite cannot keep up (with no pull) with the rider who is actually foiling a wave due to the speed of the wave and efficiency of the foil. To me, therein lies the theoretical benefit of a wing. So, not for lighter days but for bigger wave days, especially onshore. (of course, getting out thru shore break with a wing will be a nightmare)

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Re: Wing surf in waves, onshore?

Postby drsurf » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:45 pm

Just a follow up from my previous post where I was kite foiling with a Peak4 alongside a friend on a Duotone wing with a late model Fanatic SUP foil combo.
The guy with the wing is one of those people who can learn anything quicker than the average person when it comes to wind and surf sports. He learnt kitefoiling on a Spotz race foil with a 110cm mast well before most of us were struggling with a freeride foil on a 60cm mast.

Anyway he was at the beach a few days ago where I was foiling on my Moses 679/Peak4 5m combo. I gave him a go when I came in and he went out in 12-14 knots and foiled like a pro doing tacks and foot switches with ease. When he came in he asked me the price of my gear. Then he said he'd probably be selling the wing and SUP Combo as the Moses surf foil and Peak combo was much more enjoyable, better in light wind and a lot easier to carry around in his vehicle.

I guess situations where you see wings in use are a bit more specific, obviously where it's hard or unsafe to use a kite for example. Waves like Gunnar has on his video aren't common and a kite can be easier for getting though a shorebreak.
One of my friends has a wing but has no desire to get a SUP. He kite foils and prone foils and wants to use a similar prone sized board with a wing without having to be a fit 60kg Hawaiian teenager with 25 knots of wind. I remember learning to water start on sinker sailboards years ago and with a little practice it was easy and the only way in strong wind. Maybe we're on the way to doing something like that for wings without having phenomenal skills or fitness.
Still I'll be giving wingdinging a go as it's a challenge that deserves to be faced and then posted back here :)


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