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Pansh Genesis and some tuning

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kiteykitekite
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kiteykitekite » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:51 am

Regis-de-giens wrote: I must thank you for all the effort you put on your answer
Thanks it was a bit. I wish finding graphs for different models of paraglider was easier because they are similar to kites. One thing I didn't explain is the graphs with regards to kiting are reversed and also truncated. Well the paraglider one is the closest because it is the same technology but needs to be reversed and then too for kites that increase drag depowered you would likely have some weird or maybe just sudden dip at a end.

With reversing the graph you have the kite start faster, then as you sheet in you achieve maximum L/D and then with sheeting a little more you achieve maximum lift. So my statements of flying the kite as fast as possible are not quite correct. But I do know this flying kites, it's just the amount you sheet in for max L/D or Pull/Lift (flying) is not much. The amount you can sheet for max lift with static flight is quite a lot though. But you will never get as much pull static as you can get active. What the graph shows is as wind increases so too does the speeds for both max lift/pull and L/D.
Regis-de-giens wrote: if you have a larger kite, even if less L/D ratio , you get more pull of it ; do you agree ?
Yes and no. You can have a larger kite with lower L/D generate more pull than a smaller kite with higher L/D and so too you can have the opposite. It all depends how much size difference and how much L/D difference. If you take something like a very low AR kite foil or tube and compare it against the high AR race kites it is easy to make more pull from the race kite in many sizes smaller. A good example is the Peak 4 vs Moderate AR normal foil kites. The smaller foil kites are able to water start before a larger peak 4, ask tomtom about it.

So when you enter in other things like riding upwind it gets more complicated, but still the advantage is to the higher L/D with all things being equal and then even they can be unequal some and the advantage still remains. Weight is a big thing and if the kite won't fly it doesn't matter it's "L/D" it is no good. So at the very low end other things can be important, but I would emphasize that you can view this effect of weight at the low end as an effect on L/D too. The kite at the limit of supporting it's own weight will be stalling and have horrible lift to drag.
Regis-de-giens wrote: to get out of the water you need a pull during a certain time ; do you agree ? If yes
No not at all. Get out of the water is a 2 part equation, you have the lift or pull from the kite but you also have the lift from the board/hydrofoil. For the board you can have huge static lift, you can have a sup, with no pull from the kite you are out of the water. With the board or the hydrofoil you can also have huge amount of dynamic lift, that with little pull from the kite will start raising your body or board out of the water. It is also possible to raise your body and in steps flying the kite and it is also possible to pump both a board and a hydrofoil. I am not saying any part of any of this is easy because it is not there is so many techniques you can use to waterstart that combining and timing them all is very very hard. I have found that focusing on the kite flight I can get far more benefit than if I just focus on pumping. If I try both it is just too hard. I can do a more simple flight and pump but the more advanced flight is better. Maybe in the future I will be better. Already though I think sometimes I can start in 7knots with a 6m. There is using the swell to start as well, you time your water start like catching a wave.
Regis-de-giens wrote: and assuming acceptable line length in the range of 30 meters and a similar kite surface
So one disadvantage you will have with longer lines is more drag, which will lower your L/D. Yes I know longer lines work well, but not for going upwind. It's just something to consider.
Regis-de-giens wrote: kite that pursue a good flying during a movement (loops or 8 moves) can be more efficient; and a high AR (which is a condition of high L/D ratio) goes in detriment of this pull during a turn.
So this is a good point, the turn itself is detrimental to the pull and yes some kites are better than others at this. This would also be where the big advantage to longer lines is, just not too long would be the trick. I can definitely see that a kite with the better turn will beat the higher L/D kite that can't. This is actually a place I felt tubes are better, with a fast tube I could work more power than a foil kite. I am guessing that inertia is playing a huge negative to foil kites.
Regis-de-giens wrote: So low end is not always better with high L/D simply.
Yes there is other things but I feel L/D is one of the most important. Other things are important too. You can prove your point more though by getting that XXlite working well. But to me all things equal and sometimes not then better L/D equals better lowend. It is more correct to say that, than just say weight of the kite is important, though it is.
Regis-de-giens wrote: Yes, or a similar surface , and assuming a similar camber for example; I agree (from start ....) ; camber changes the game, otherwise camber on planes would never increase at the landing phase .... but again, as above quoted, a higher AR kite is not faster in turn for example, so not more powerful for the overall water start process.
So yes you get more lift with camber, but you get maximum lift by combining a little camber with quite some speed. Aircraft are different because they can be powered and then they also can have flaps that increase the wing area a lot. I think this is an interesting subject and there is not enough data on it. You can't find configurations say for flaps, AoA and speed for most planes for maximum lift because only maximum glide ratio is considered necessary. It is well established that maximum lift and L/D are closely related. From the examples I gave the speed difference is about 10% but the lift can be quite different. To me this explains how I find this riding. I sheet in flying the kite so pull increases but the kite doesn't slow or barely slows. I have naturally learnt this on my own but it is nice to know some data behind it. Being able to tune the camber while you fly the kite would be great too. I am quite certain with experience you can see by eye if Z is being pulled too much or too little. I guess this is where something like the LMT is good, but I always found flysurfer could be a bit on the slower tuned side.

Through my reading I learnt about displacement and sink rate. It would be why foils and particular big ones drift so well, because of their volume but also combined with other things. The ultimate drifting kite may be one that is very fat. Though I tend to like the idea of the dihedral concept and also thinner faster kites for most use.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:08 pm

Ok back to the Genesis tried the 4m today with Jackomixer.
64kg Gong Pro surfoil min20 av23/24 max 30 knots .
2hours riding and the kite behaved perfectly down loops no wingtip folding 😍.I would normally just be out (survival) conditions with a 5m Dyno not really having fun this kite changes that for me.
Windy weather can now be enjoyed 😍.

kiteykitekite
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kiteykitekite » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:20 pm

Do you think the jackomixer is a must on the 4m?

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:21 am

kiteykitekite wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:20 pm
Do you think the jackomixer is a must on the 4m?
Absolutely it gives the kite 3x depower range.Plus the smaller the kite the less bar pressure there is .I was using the kite on a 55cm 23m line bar was nice and playful 🥰

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:26 am

The wife is going to love the 8m when it comes .She will have a easy 10 to 20 knot range on her Hydrofoil. I'll easy increase that to 27ish.
Now the 12m is going to be really heavy so kiteykitekite could you assist me in reducing bar pressure.
Would i lengthen C by 4cm like i did for the a15 🙋🙋🙋

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:40 am

Well the main option to decrease bar pressure is remove the jackomixer... Another option is to lengthen Z. This will reduce bar pressure but change the kites behavior too. Another option is to alter the Jackomixer by adding a second pulley to B to change it from 1:2 to 1:3. Another option is to use a diablo line instead of the jackomixer.

Lengthening C on a normal mixer should increase bar pressure, not sure though on the Jackomixer. The tension on Z with a normal mixer is the main influence on bar pressure because it is directly connected to the bar. On the jackomixer Z is doubled so worse and C is directly connected. You might have to lengthen both but you will likely severely alter the kite like that. Maybe your wife will like it though? It will be much more stable.

Don't be shy with questions.

Lastly the increase of depower by the jackomixer is only really because you are accessing it from the bar now because the jackomixer makes the needed trim range smaller. It is still there without the jackomixer you just need a longer trim range.

Having said that you can alter the depower at the mixer on foil kites. Many foil kites, particularly flysurfers, suffer from the depower becoming less as the bridles and pulley lines shrink. You can modify them to have original depower or even more than standard, which is good for light wind particularly with hydrofoils.

There can be a "slight" increase in depower from the jackmixer though, because of how the pulley ends rearrange. The B pulley line gets slightly longer if it is not looped on the C pulley at one end anymore. But I think how most of you are doing it this is not the case?

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:47 pm

I would never go back to standard .
Without the Jackomixer the kite was IMO unusable on the Hydrofoil with Jackomixer it's a huge depower monster of a machine 😍.
So much so sheeting out im managing to foil round onto my first tacks just by momentum.
Flying the 10m today it is only heavy on a twintip so really in lighter wind there isn't a problem.
But I can't help myself I will have a play I've got a couple of ideas 😀.
Regards to bridle shrinkage the 9m a15 was hit badly, I've got it flying correctly but have had to lengthen random bridle lines.
It doesn't really hold air anymore so I'll trash it with the mountain board 👍

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kiteykitekite » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:37 am

Weird your 9m A15 doesn't hold air. Maybe it has a rip? The simplest way to adjust foil kites is to adjust Z length.

I read you don't like the 12m A15 anymore? You said it doesn't depower enough? Is B going slack fully depowered at the window edge?

The difference between A15 and Genesis with jackomixer, is A15 still won't have as short bar trim as Genesis.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby merl » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:01 am

Anyone tried the 3m Genesis for foiling? What is the expected windrange?

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:59 am

Not tested but as a comparison with similar kite type: with my foilkite wave 3m, i can ride from about 15 knots up to 40-45 knots i would say, (with big foil wing and 60 kg).
Sweet spot is 20-27 knots approx for wave style and approx 25-35 for freeride style.

I would bet that with genesis, wind rang is a bit more narrow.


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