Ozone Zephyr V5/6 17m or Ozone Hypelink v2 11/13m ?

[Archer77]

Sincerely Thank You ALL for all your information and big detailed panoramic of the situation

Thank you again guys, I have read multiple time all the comments, I understand that is also much a matter of preferences, as is natural to be

but please don't argue about it, I know that today things are pretty defined but many variables remain undercovered or matter of preference...

From what I understand the 13m Hyperlink is still not as much as my Zephyr V5 17m speaking of pull power in ultra light wind, and this is the probably the most relevant point for my use, is confirmed by the Ozone official wind ranges and being that I didn't feel to approach the complexity of a bigger and much complex foil kite I'm more than happy to stay with my Zephyr that is much fun from 11/12 kn and with a big wind range from(at least for me with TT) 10 to 20+ Kn

I think about hydrofoil board too, but I prefer to learn before better to ride with the TT that is still absolutely fun also in light wind than many people told me that when you start to use the hydrofoil you stay with it... so I will take it for the future...

[joriws]

LOL, most of my kiting skills are for ultra light wind. Many many times I've kited alone because no one else don't want to go because the lack of wind. I've done it for nearly twenty years now and most of it with foil kites, up to 24m. Mostly FS kites, but also many others including several race foil kites from brands like Ozone, PL, Joker, HQ.

If you joriws think that Yteri video impresses me that much think again. It is typical mowing the lawn with a big board, nothing really happens. Kites on the beach of course could have been used if they wanted to do so or had skills and preferably big boards like you had. Personally I haven't used doors for years (2012 maybe?) because they are so clumsy but I do have a light wind TT, I guess it is 145x45 size. Using hf of course makes this kind of equipment less important.

If you know how to fly kite and and how to ride a board (keeping it precisely right on the water and riding precisely correct angle to wind) kite significance essentially decreases. I once showed a guy with a 14m LEI (he was lighter weight than me) how to do it when he wasn't able to pull it up (it was a pity because he came to the beach with a bicycle hauling his gear with all difficulties ). Yes it wasn't much of a ride but I did go out and more importantly came back, without walk of shame. It is all about kiting skills. My goal wasn't to embarrass him but to show him it is possible, show how to pull it up with strong long pull and how to use kiteloop start, how to get some speed first, how to not lose ground etc etc..

I also know a local guy who is semi pro, he always uses smaller kites (LEI's) than anyone else and voila - there he goes again. In extreme cases he has been with a 10m kite, others 14m to 17m and couple with 15m Speeds. I think his secret is superb board skills (surfboards and foils), but of course he has excellent hand for kites too.

Unfortunately your weight alone joriws makes real ultra light wind kiting impossible on water. So your doubts for my low wind skills feel a bit funny to me. Do you even know what ultra light wind kiting is? I know what it is but I don't give crazy claims like riding in 4kn or in 6kn. On ice I've done it because then friction is near zero and you don't need power to get going but never on the water, not even with hf because I don't have that good skills with hf nor any desire to go out if wind is that weak.

When people tell their LEI's are falling from the sky and fix is to take a foil kite I shake my head.

Jumping 4-5m is possible when you get some speed, it is more about board and rider than kite thing. With a 17m LEI in 10-12kn I typically get 15-20 ft jumps, if I had better technique perhaps some more could be possible. No big air for sure but if weather is nice - like it often is in low wind days - it is ok. And actually 20ft jumps start to have some feel of flying. For practicing new tricks light wind days are very good because you can push it to the max without much fear from hurting yourself. There is also not much chop when wind is light.

Instead of long boring text & bullet -thread, like you had many with foilholio (which I did not bother to read), in 20y of riding you *must* have VHS-videos of you riding in low wind. Please share so that we can scrutinize your alleged kite skills that on 17m LEI you outperform and see your technique and sheeting skills. You can write anything you want (like I can write anything I want), for example I've kited 50y and I kite in -4 knots and I've ridden million hours per kite on all kites on the market and with 100m kite (not me but fellows stacked maybe 60m2 of kites, video on youtube), blah blah. You wrote "ft" in your jump height (my feet are 46EU or 12US, my feet must be bigger than yours but my jump measured in my feet are lower than your unless your feet are larger ) so you must be in USA where you say "talk is cheap" so show some real action. I did and I call you for your bluff similar Foilholio did. Start building your expert brand on VLOG or something, I'll subscribe so you got at least one viewer.

Among my local kiting pals there are many 20y kite-hobbyist coming from windsurfing, the usual path to kite, but they do not have LEI-trick in their sleeves despite of their "experience" to outperform with LW-LEI a 15m foil kite. So years of hobby does not tell anything if you only make bad choises after bad choises for *your* riding environment (temps, winds etc). Many of them actually had 15m Speeds and now Sonics. One kite pal (18y of kite behind him) was North (now *is* Duotone) importer and we back-to-back (like you did 17m lei against Speed4-15) tested days Speed3 15m against Dyno 16m and Speed3 was the winner by these 20y (today, back then 13y) experienced guys, now same importer guy had North Ace 14.5m and earlier had 15m Chrono v1. Maybe he's buying Duotone foilkite or something.

but some points you made needs comment:

* yyteri video is not to impress *you*, it is a view of real-life kite life at low wind beach => Big LEIs big problems. Kiteforum had thread about lightwind competition maybe 2014 so I quickly assembled the video to proof light wind by charasteristics of kite flying. Now I just use it to prove that on foil kites there is something magical in ULW. Video also shows people getting cheated for their big light wind LEI for the money. If low wind tricks are what you are after ("nothing really happens"), please check my video at same YT-channel where I first time test Sonic-FR 15m. Definitely LW - jumps, rotations, hand plant back roll tacks, jump downwind to *upwind* ie take-off position is downwind of landing position, ever done that with your setup (please share video, I did, remember talk is still cheap). Sure you can question everything on me, sure I can question too about your only self claimed skills. Don't write BS text here at KF, put a video of you showing your skills to back you up.

* I did not make any claims of wind speed me riding (your comment 4 or 6 kn, you did). 1) I posted a jump picture of jump and surface wind (and generic wiki on surface wind estimation in mph-units) at lake to take away suspicion of just lawn moving (by now you should have also checked Sonic-FR demo video of mine). 2) I stated that LEI 12m could not on 30kg lighter rider go but LEI flied properly and I recommended him to get 15m LEI I knew he had but he refused. 3) I told that I could still jump nice LW jumps (you say only lawn moving). 4) And stated that there was some inversion (surface vs kite level wind, but 12M LEI just could not produce impulse (do you know what impulse is?) to get planing. Then I also I posted the Yyteri-video without windspeed, look your "15m speed equals 17m LEI" so 17m LEI are not riding but I am with your back-to-back -tested Speed4-15m which does not have benefit. If you cannot find any difference in light wind with 17m LEI and 15m Speed4 - it gives to my IRL experience all rights to question your skills, because my other 20y kiter-pals do find difference and refuse to buy over 12m LEI kite so their quiver is LEI under 12m and 15m foilkite.

* You can shake your head as much as you want, I also shake my head too but for the opposite reason. "Poor guy, invested 2000eur/usd/ukp to overly hyped/marketed 17m LW-LEI and still he cannot ride or maintain ground due to facts stated previous post of mine, must feel disappointed and cheated wasting money for the wrong gear". Like said earlier in this post, we have hundreds or so more or less active kiters on my country and they go for LW LEI because it is the only option on our LW area they think. And I ride at the same beach & water & time as they do. And I see unhappy faces, disappointments to their hyped session saver kite gear. Again if you kitexpert cannot use the gear properly and don't know basic rules of LW kite flying - it is not the kite's fault. I am still waiting for your video to prove that *you* can ride in single digit knots, or in other words I am calling your bluff. (insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme picture here if you like)

* I follow the zeitgeist, I am using HF with 5m Peak4 this summer and I've had HF since 2016 (want to see my 1st ever HF-ride on demo session, it is online too?). For sure at beach I am heaviest rider and I'll use roughly 10m smaller kites than others, I already did this winter snow kite camp with 150 kiters. But if someone asks tips / recommendations on *TT* and light wind, I like to think I've competence to answer the question because I've seen a lot and I understand the ULW problem area. Kitexpert, you just answer without real proven competence.

[kitexpert]

I can share my history and experience with lightwind kites, maybe it helps in some way.

Ozone Zephyr 17m - my first lightwind kite, it was the first-generation Zephyr. I used it with a twintip, an Alaia board, a raceboard (remember those big ones with 3 long fins?), also in winter with skis and snowboard. It was quite good, the main problem was it was heavy and was falling out of sky in marginal winds. But I could ride while others could only watch. Big kites were considered uncool at that time, not sure why. When the wind was really low, I was adding 10 to 15 meter line extensions and still could ride. But if the kite fell, it was pretty much the end of the session.

Airush Vantage 18m LW - this was advertised as a high aspect race kite and a 'race kite' sounded good to me. It was also a 3 strut kite (as opposed to 5 struts on Zephyr) so was much lighter. It had a nice feature that in lulls it would drift back a bit and then could recover, so it would not fall out of the sky so easily. So a fine kite, I would say.

Ozone Chrono 18m - my first foil kite (the 1st generation Chrono), bought it used, with a race bar. Foil kites were fashionable now, so I needed to try one. I mostly used it with an Airush Sector board and a self-built slalom board (sold my large raceboards because they were not so much fun to ride), Sector was nearly as good in light winds (with an emphasis on "nearly") but was much more playful. Also used it with an alaia (in shallows). It was powerful but I hated how slow-turning it was. In light winds it felt like minutes until the kite crossed the wind window. And then it goes to the edge of the window -- if you have not riding at some speed at this point then all the power is pretty much gone. And there is no power-on-demand, you can't quickly sine the kite up and down to get power because in the world of Chrono there is no such thing as quickly. Everything is smooth and painfully slow. Also had some long swims with the kite which were not pleasant. One of them was in early spring when water was just few degrees above the freezing point. I was nearly a km out in the sea and the wind dropped. I could not waterstart, then tried to loop the kite but the wingtip cached water and the kite went down. When I finally got to the beach, there were firefighters, police and paramedics waiting, and it took a long time to explain to them that I have not drowned, I am OK, just please let me go home.
I used this kite for riding in winter, it worked even when there was almost no wind. Nobody would even try to get a tube kite in the air but I could happily glide on my skis.

RRD Emotion 17m - the age of strutless kites had begun. They were advertised to be as light as foil kites but with the simplicity and safety of tube kites. The kite was also low aspect so it would turn much faster than Chrono. When I started to use this kite I soon noticed the downsides of this design. In the air it is not as balanced as a foil kite, the leading edge is still heavier than the rest of the kite. It can be tricky to land, the wind wants to lift the front part and the kite wants to roll over and fly. If the kite fell into water, it was pain or impossible to relaunch in light wind. If it fell on the leading edge and water got between the thick leading edge tube and the canopy, it became heavy and unwilling to lift. If it ended up leading edge up that was pretty much end of the story, all the canopy was wet and there were no struts to lift it out of water. Also the wind range of the kite was surprisingly narrow, if the wind is light you can hardly start but once you start riding the kite is pulling so much that it drags you downwind a lot. And when the wind picks up the kite needs to be depowered a lot, so much that it does not react to the steering input. I did not like this kite.

HQ4 Matrixx 18m - my second foil kite. HQ is a less known company than Ozone or Flysurfer but has been in the snowkite business for a long time, also has had some water foil kites. The latest generation Matrixx was advertised as lower aspect than those race foil kites and as fast turning. I bought it and I like it much more than my earlier Chrono. Turning is really faster and the wind range is really wide. Once I started my session in about 5m/s when my 12m kite would not work with a surfboard. Then wind picked up and it was about 10m/s in the end. I depowered my Matrixx and it still was controllable and I could finish my session. When riding on a twintip in marginal winds I still have to struggle not to go downwind but this still works better than any of my previous lightwind kites. I am also using it with slightly extended lines (29m) and a long 65cm bar for better turning speed. So this one is a keeper.

Interestingly I know all of those kites and my opinions of them are quite a lot same.

Vantage or VXR were first race LEI kites I tested and I remember they had very much same hang time as FS Speeds which I found remarkable. However I couldn't get that high jumps but I didn't have that much time to try it either.

Strutless big kites do have a problem with very limited high end. They sit deeper in the WW and start to pull very heavily very soon. I had couple of sessions with 18m Zero and I have to pull trimmer in ridiculously early, without seeing white caps on the water. For heavy weight rider this kind of kites can be worth considering, normal or light weight rider no.

Big Matrixx kites are pleasant low wind kites but they lose in performance to kites like Speed (and even more to Sonic). So they don't jump that well. Positive is they are very light weight kites and also less expensive. They turn ok, you can loop also big sizes without any tricks.

Zephyr can take more wind than perhaps any 17m LEI kite, but low end of it isn't that great. It is nice kite to jump when wind is in low teens. On snow for example difference to 15m Speed in considerable, Zephyr is no match there.

My first experiences with Chrono v1's were a bit worrying, they had quite a lot tendency to overfly and collapse. After some adjustments and getting used to them they were ok though and they beat easily FS Speeds in speed or upwind. 18m size is very slow indeed. Chrono had more hang time than any kite when it came but jumping high wasn't so easy. 9m size had a nasty tendency to backstall aggressively in the middle of the jump if you pushed it harder than it could deliver, then you dropped like a rock.

[PullStrings]

get to me with "king of pond" but you fail miserably.
My lines were 27m which are not unheard in lw lei bars

But it's true about the pond
You are not challenged
Add 4 meters for the bridle
Your lines are 31m to the kite
What are you doing on such small kite at your weight
With a strong LW 17 LEI so many light wind expert riders could do circles around you
You would be the one sitting it out watching

[joriws]

What are you doing on such small kite at your weight
With a strong LW 17 LEI so many light wind expert riders could do circles around you

Because weekend freerider like I am do not need larger than 15m foil kite. I've systematically stated that in every KF-thread I encounter with people asking "should they get 18, 19 or 21m foil kite for light wind". Invest less money in 15m kite and get 4-6m extensions and build understanding how to fly it and go, be happier. I had Speed3-21m when learning the art. If TT board selection matches the conditions, you can go so low that I even suspect that on my HF I cannot get the impulse to get up from water and on foil lift-off speed but maybe I need to learn HF pumping to do like real LW HF pro-riders. I know that people used Flyrace TT-board with 30cm middle fins at Toronto light winds to push ULW boundrary as down as possible on TT, so that would be the ultimate TT-gear also for me if I want one. But no I don't want to invest TT anymore as I have HF since 2015 and 2nd HF on order.

Sure, LW LEI experts (remember we talk on *TT*, not HF or surf/raceboard) could do circles around me but I am still waiting the very first one to appear at my pond. What are the odds that all the people I meet at my ponds do not out perform me on *TT* when winds drop and you need session saving. I am heavy, nothing special in freestyle, not kiting everyday or even every week. Is it due to better gear selection and better skill build to use that gear on those conditions with very little sessions? And understanding of wing loading, polar curves etc due to my hang glider background to understand something about sheeting and how to drive the kite? Or am I in different universe with different laws of physics only for me so wind for me is always the double to rest of people at the pond?

And if 65kg LEI LW expert goes circles around me I always can ask him to take 45l = 45kg water canisters with him just to compare the kite and kite skill as we were supposed to do (share the board).. No need for that one yet.

I am not claiming to be best ULW rider (sub 10kn rider) in the world if you Pullstrings are afraid of that, how can I be with my weight? But when 75kg cannot ride or go upwind and I can there is something wrong with 75kg's side, not mine. And I am not afraid to share my experience and though via recommendations or suggestions or technique tips I make on KF and being open with videos to prove my saying. I'd love to share a ride and beer with any "LEI ULW" expert I meet, it is not a competition against him/her but against the environment. But who goes to beach if forecast is 6kn, I won't. But at "session saving" when forecast is 12kn I go but wind at location is 8kn, I might try to ride as well because I drove 125km one-way to location..

[PullStrings]

The OP question has been answered about a 13 m and he is happy

I am impressed that you are so dedicated and drive 125 km one way to kite since I walk 250 meters to my spot
You have really good light winds skills and are very enthusiastic
Keep the joy and happiness