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climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

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Matteo V
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:30 pm

Pemba wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:25 pm
I'd not like to debate the CO2 part of your argument, just the other things I mentioned (plastics, pollutants etc.), from the way I wrote I thought that was evident actually. I think these things are the result of population increase and that they are devastating to the environment. Do you disagree ? If so then yes, I'd like to debate/explore that, maybe you can educate me on that. Although I'm quite aware that the topic here is CO2, not other environmental issues.
The other thing I had asked already, why do you keep on bringing up a cooler climate and its problems ? Are you concerned that reducing CO2 emissions as proposed by AGW believers might lead to a cooling climate ?
The other things are my main point! And the environmentalism of the past, present, and likely future, are steering us toward even more disaster with the things you would like to debate. The absolute absurdity of the left attempting to solve climate change when they have shown the ultimate in incompetency of solving any other environmental issues in the past, is truly sad - sad that there is so much zealotry on the left, and no accountability.

The main reason to bring up cooling is that of the three climates you can have, warming, stability (no change), and cooling, cooling is devastating. However, stability is impossible and his never really existed on this Earth. The climate is always warming or Cooling. So which one would you prefer given all other parameters, such as population increase?

The topic of this thread is not CO2, but rather climate change. And upon in-depth examination of this topic you find that the climate change debate is farcical in it's past, its present, and the future path of upon which we are on.

We can't solve any anthropogenic climate change with an increasing population, regardless of whether or not that climate change is real. No matter how many more people the Earth can support while it is warming, it will not be able to support the current amount of people in a cooling climate.

We also seem to be completely incompetent, on the left, for solving any of the problems that we create for ourselves. The one thing the left seems good at creating is new problems, or making existing problems much worse and in many examples now impossible to solve.

And the supposed solution for this farcical anthropogenic climate change, is that we build a bunch of new technology in second and third world countries where no environmental policy exist to prevent actual damage to the environment from the construction of these supposed technological solutions?

We are solving things which aren't actually problems given our other problems, with more problems. Good luck with that!
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SimonP
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby SimonP » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:17 pm

All very ironic considering Oregon is currently getting a teaser as to what the climate will look like in the future.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby tegirinenashi » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:44 pm

SimonP wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:17 pm
All very ironic considering Oregon is currently getting a teaser as to what the climate will look like in the future.
The irony is lost on me, because forest fires is not climate. It has been emphasized numerous times that addressing the challenge directly is much more effective than having a universal solution to all world problems [reducing CO2]. Or, do you seriously believe that forest fire hazard would evaporate as soon as you drop the global CO2 concentration to 350 ppm?

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby SimonP » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:18 am

tegirinenashi wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:44 pm
Or, do you seriously believe that forest fire hazard would evaporate as soon as you drop the global CO2 concentration to 350 ppm?
I didn't say that. It is well documented that temperate regions transitioning into sub-tropical will experience longer and hotter dry periods.
I know a number of fire researchers who contend that fire intensity is changing as a result. The recent PNW and SE Australian fires have exhibited behaviour never seen before in recent lifetime.
Last edited by SimonP on Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby SimonP » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:30 am

double post.
So let's show a new temperature reconstruction
Image
Note the non-linear scale.
https://phys.org/news/2020-09-high-fide ... rrent.html
T. Westerhold el al., "An astronomically dated record of Earth's climate and its predictability over the last 66 million years," Science (2020). science.sciencemag.org/cgi/doi … 1126/science.aba6853

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tegirinenashi
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby tegirinenashi » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:26 pm

Image

When Cambrian explosion happened on this timeline? Therefore, shouldn't every admirer of "diversity and inclusion" celebrate higher temperatures?
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Matteo V
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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Matteo V » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:09 pm

SimonP wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:17 pm
All very ironic considering Oregon is currently getting a teaser as to what the climate will look like in the future.
More people living in areas that we have historically known we're not a good place to live = more sensationalized natural disasters affecting those people living in places that were never a good place to live in before.

Wildfires are natural and always have been. The increase in intensity is typically derived from the increase in property destruction and people actually causing them (intentionally or by negligence). As we keep building more properties to be destroyed by natural wildfires, we will continue to have more properties destroyed by natural wildfires. It's a difficult concept for most, as logic and rationality are difficult for most.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby SimonP » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:13 am

No. Fire intensity is a function of fuel load and weather. Extreme weather probabilities are being affected by climate change. Fuel load can be diminished by active forest management. The Australians have learnt that the window for controlled burning is reducing as the climate warms and drought severity increases.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:42 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:13 pm
Pemba wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:57 pm
I agree with you that an increasing (global) population is not a good thing and that it should come up in the CO2 debate (but doesn't really). But reducing it easier said than done. Do you have any proposals ? I'm not aware that "the left" has an increasing population as an ideal. If you refer not to an increasing global population but to an increasing population in "rich" countries, by "importing" people, I doubt it has a significant influence on the world population and the environment. But I might be wrong.
Native populations of Western countries are naturally reducing their population by choosing to not have children above replacement rates. This is economically devastating to the banking system which exists solely on the basis of money as debt. The banking system that we have today, cannot function with a declining population. Other banking systems absolutely do work with a declining population, but are not seen as advantageous those who administer the current world monetary policy.

Thus immigration is both naturally and purposely steered toward importing people who will increase the population of Western countries. This increases the population of the World by immediately increasing the population of Western countries a small amount, and significantly increasing the population of Western countries by a much larger amount one to two Generations down the line. Second and third world Nations also gain more room and available resources for those remaining in those countries to increase the population there.

With regards to this problem, both left and right are guilty of furthering it. But the left, who holds environmentalism as a and ideal, is actually working against its own environmentalism with the importation of people who will increase the population. This is a large problem on the left because inconsistency of logic, or working against your own goals, without your own constituency calling you out on it, is "rule by insanity".
Yes, I have to agree with you on this to a point. I guess there is a bit of an argument to be made that replacement rates go down as people are better off so I'm expecting immigrants reproduction rate to drop in a generation or two. I also doubt that population in second and third world countries would rise as a result of emigration to first world countries, in fact I'd think the opposite. The same arguments can be made off course for any "development aid" relating to hospitals, better medical conditions and many more things. By promoting "helping" third world countries in various ways, the left is in fact stimulating global population growth. I guess short term "humanity" comes before climate change then. I wouldn't call it inconsistent or insanity and I still doubt it's relevance in the climate change debate but it might as well be mentioned and it isn't really.

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Re: climate change / unpredictable weather/wind

Postby Pemba » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:08 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:30 pm
Pemba wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:25 pm
I'd not like to debate the CO2 part of your argument, just the other things I mentioned (plastics, pollutants etc.), from the way I wrote I thought that was evident actually. I think these things are the result of population increase and that they are devastating to the environment. Do you disagree ? If so then yes, I'd like to debate/explore that, maybe you can educate me on that. Although I'm quite aware that the topic here is CO2, not other environmental issues.
The other thing I had asked already, why do you keep on bringing up a cooler climate and its problems ? Are you concerned that reducing CO2 emissions as proposed by AGW believers might lead to a cooling climate ?
The other things are my main point! And the environmentalism of the past, present, and likely future, are steering us toward even more disaster with the things you would like to debate. The absolute absurdity of the left attempting to solve climate change when they have shown the ultimate in incompetency of solving any other environmental issues in the past, is truly sad - sad that there is so much zealotry on the left, and no accountability.
I think we're misunderstanding each other. My point was even without considering rising CO2 levels, a rising global population is a big (environmental) problem I think. This in response to your: "a population increase is not environmentally devastating in a warming climate where food is available"
Matteo V wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:30 pm
The main reason to bring up cooling is that of the three climates you can have, warming, stability (no change), and cooling, cooling is devastating. However, stability is impossible and his never really existed on this Earth. The climate is always warming or Cooling. So which one would you prefer given all other parameters, such as population increase?
I believe you have stated that you don't believe that people are responsible for global warming or capable of changing the trend. So I don't understand the concern for global cooling as a result of humans trying to reduce CO2. I'd prefer for it to stay around the present temperature. One year up, the next year down sort of thing. Off course long term this is unlikely. But I think present population increase is unsustainable in the long run anyway.

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:30 pm
The topic of this thread is not CO2, but rather climate change. And upon in-depth examination of this topic you find that the climate change debate is farcical in it's past, its present, and the future path of upon which we are on.

We can't solve any anthropogenic climate change with an increasing population, regardless of whether or not that climate change is real. No matter how many more people the Earth can support while it is warming, it will not be able to support the current amount of people in a cooling climate.

We also seem to be completely incompetent, on the left, for solving any of the problems that we create for ourselves. The one thing the left seems good at creating is new problems, or making existing problems much worse and in many examples now impossible to solve.

And the supposed solution for this farcical anthropogenic climate change, is that we build a bunch of new technology in second and third world countries where no environmental policy exist to prevent actual damage to the environment from the construction of these supposed technological solutions?

We are solving things which aren't actually problems given our other problems, with more problems. Good luck with that!
A bit too political for me all that.. Left = evil, right = good ?


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