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heli loop not providing lift

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Toby
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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby Toby » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:08 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:17 am
Toby wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:36 pm
That video is a lift loop
Genuine question. What's the difference?

I've seen plenty of people use a late heliloop just before landing and get a little increase in height. You can see it often at KOTA (though its always just before landing rather than high in the air so you don't have the opportunity to keep looping for max hangtime). My understanding is you are using the swing effect against the kite to provide the lift (hence it must be/or go behind you). Note I'm using lift to cover an upward force and the actual observable effect may be just to slow the descent.

I was just joking because different names came up 😉

Let’s find names so we know what kind of loop it is, because you can either forward or backward loop it.

E.g.:

Forward Heliloop:
Your kite is BEHIND the zenith, and the kite would stall since you under jump it and the kite would be flying behind you.
To get the kite back above you you pull hard on the FRONT hand so the kite loops above you and comes back over you.

Backward Heliloop:
The kite is flying FORWARD towards the wind window and you get forward speed and will hit the water hard if you crash.
To get the kite back over you, you pull hard on your BACK hand and the kite will loop above you and the kite comes back over you.

Opinions?
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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby Dimitrios » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:22 pm

Toby wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:08 pm

Let’s find names so we know what kind of loop it is, because you can either forward or backward loop it.

E.g.:

Forward Heliloop:
Your kite is BEHIND the zenith, and the kite would stall since you under jump it and the kite would be flying behind you.
To get the kite back above you you pull hard on the FRONT hand so the kite loops above you and comes back over you.

Backward Heliloop:
The kite is flying FORWARD towards the wind window and you get forward speed and will hit the water hard if you crash.
To get the kite back over you, you pull hard on your BACK hand and the kite will loop above you and the kite comes back over you.

Opinions?
"Heli" is when kite passes '12' during the loop. Forward or backward is as you mention and depends which hand is pulling relatively to the direction of travelling.

#agreed

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby pākihiroa » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:30 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:59 pm
But heliloops does not increase overall hangtime, not possible.
Don't tell these little guys that :o

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:47 pm

Indeed, I stand corrected.

You can not jump higher using loops, as you can not add energy thus max jump height is the same (in steady air).

But it seems the heliloop works as a helicopter blade, or more like an autogyro, the "flown" area is almost the circle meaning the swept wing area, meaning you get more area and lower sink rate.
But you also need to use energi to sweep, keep rotating, so it is not the full area at max lift - quite complicated.

With a kite it is not simple either, even more difficult, as huge loss also, and the rider is not as fixed as a heavier chopper, so you get only a part of the swept area as lifting area.

Could be interesting to calculate or have some numbers on this, as I believe a kite with a surfer is not an autogyro nor a glider but something in between.

But WHERE in between?

8) Peter

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby SWO_kite » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:28 pm

Faxie wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:17 pm
My guess is the topicstarter is looping the kite too fast so it ends up too much upwind again. Also keeps the bar pulled in too much maybe. When your lines are crossed because of the loop, the effective length is less, so you might be stalling the kite.
^^This

I completely forgot to consider bar position when making my comments about looping. Having the bar pulled in too far during the loop would most certainly effect kite speed in the loop - less speed = less lift.

Good observation, Faxie!

Combined with the above, I believe loop timing will be the key to OP's success at softer landings.

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:43 pm

Can second that, most likely the OP loops too early, quite common.

So not the desired soft landing.

And maybe also choking the kite yes.

8) Peter

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby 1234567Simon » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:54 pm





These two have helped me a lot.

To keep it clear: I do NOT need heliloops because I just do Not Jump high enough that I need a heliloop.

But I like the „landing Loop“ as it gives me More Time with the kite speeded up in the „Sweet Spot“

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby cor » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:02 pm

Faxie wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:17 pm
After a big jump you'll go full downwind, so forward or backward don't apply. What matters is the kite position before the loop. Heliloops are done through 12.

My guess is the topicstarter is looping the kite too fast so it ends up too much upwind again. Also keeps the bar pulled in too much maybe. When your lines are crossed because of the loop, the effective length is less, so you might be stalling the kite.
Either that or he is is just pulling the loop too late. In general, timing is even more important than where your bar is. He is talking about that he is pulled downwind, which usually means that you are looping too late.

All just guesses without a video.

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby oksman » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:38 pm

Toby wrote: Forward Heliloop:
Your kite is BEHIND the zenith, and the kite would stall since you under jump it and the kite would be flying behind you.
To get the kite back above you you pull hard on the FRONT hand so the kite loops above you and comes back over you.

Backward Heliloop:
The kite is flying FORWARD towards the wind window and you get forward speed and will hit the water hard if you crash.
To get the kite back over you, you pull hard on your BACK hand and the kite will loop above you and the kite comes back over you.
That is absolutelly perfect. And that is the reason why when you downloop you might need two or three loops to land but when you kiteloop just one loop is usually enough, as you spend time positioning your kite forward.
SWO_kite wrote: I completely forgot to consider bar position when making my comments about looping. Having the bar pulled in too far during the loop would most certainly effect kite speed in the loop - less speed = less lift.
IMHO this is not true, in fact, that would be the opposite. A slow wide heliloop will provide much more lift than a tight and fast one, so they are supposed to be done cranking the bar and not rotating to fast.

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby SWO_kite » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:22 pm

oksman wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:38 pm
SWO_kite wrote: I completely forgot to consider bar position when making my comments about looping. Having the bar pulled in too far during the loop would most certainly effect kite speed in the loop - less speed = less lift.
IMHO this is not true, in fact, that would be the opposite. A slow wide heliloop will provide much more lift than a tight and fast one, so they are supposed to be done cranking the bar and not rotating to fast.
I think I'll agree to disagree.

I feel your statement assumes the rider has his or her kite tuned perfectly. I happen to ride with EXTRA pigtails on my front lines to give me more power for big jumps in big wind. When riding the kite in that configuration I get bigger boosts over all, but during landings and riding downwind I can easily stall the kite because of the extra aggressive front line length. I compensate by making sure to sheet the bar out during certain maneuvers to give the kite the mobility it needs, for example, tight & fast loops without stalling.

I feel most kiters don't equal out their lines after every seshy and therefore their front lines would likely be stretched - especially in cases where the rider in question loves to jump a lot.

But overall, I don't think being super specific on any one recommendation will help the OP. He/she will have to practice and experiment to identify what their specific issue is and work on improving or correcting it.


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