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How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

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JakeFarley
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby JakeFarley » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:39 pm

Where my helmet covers my ears there are holes. However, it reduces my hearing significantly. Any recommendations for a good all around helmet for TT, foiling, surf that will not reduce my hearing?

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Matteo V » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:08 pm

vannibombonato wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 am
I have spent years visiting an hospital where people with brain damages are kept, and i can tell you that in his Inferno Dante could not imagine something even close to what i've witnessed many times.
And i'm willing to spend 10 minutes per day into possibly helping someone not to end there.

There is a micro, micro chance for this to happen, i know that, but it's enough for me to post.
Yeah, the real dive into the psyche would be how so many of my fellow experienced kiters can be so heartless to spread thier viral infection of "stupid excuses to not wear a helmet".

I mean just in the lives that have been lost or utterly ruined because some beginner saw an experienced kiter not wearing a helmet, and decided not to themselves......... I guess I couldn't live with myself if it was my own vanity that caused the death or life altering injury of one of those beautiful people who share the same passion as me.

So on my side of the debate, the feelings part is that I wear a helmet all the time not just to protect others. I also wear one all the time, so I am not an excuse for others not to. It's almost like my care and respect for others overrides my own self conciousness and desire to be respected.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby iriejohn » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm

JakeFarley wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:39 pm
Where my helmet covers my ears there are holes. However, it reduces my hearing significantly. Any recommendations for a good all around helmet for TT, foiling, surf that will not reduce my hearing?
I wear a Gath Surf Convertible helmet which has ear pads which I have removed.
GATH Surf Convertible ear protectors are easily removed to expose the ears – ideal for hot weather – or easily attached, becoming an extension of the helmet shell for added impact protection and extra warmth in cold conditions. Adjustable audio vents allow further flexibility to shut out the cold wind or open to improve hearing.
https://gathsports.com/product/gath-sfc/

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Last edited by iriejohn on Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby PullStrings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:18 pm

We know who posts the most safely on KF

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Sarda » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:27 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:16 pm
Sarda wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 pm
jbrodin wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:28 am
A helmet saved my life. A gust trew me into a tree during self launching my kite. I woke up in the hospital, I still don't remember the incident, but the state of the helmet is proof enough. I definetely never became less cautious because of wearing a helmet. Not that I think this will change any minds. In the end we all make our own choices and the risks associated with kiting is a part of why we even do it at all.

The point is did you self launch upwind of the trees relying on the helmet for protection from those trees? Did the helmet affect your decision to self launch upwind of trees? Were the trees a consideration? Did you use your helmet area instinctively "for protection" to reduce risk of injury to your face/neck for example? (as arms ar usually on the bar, perhaps you can reason the implications of mitigation?)
...
Move you finger under what jbrodin said. :thumb:

Does he feel safer wearing a helmet?
Do you?


It's true, "Shit happens" to some more than others.
Last edited by Sarda on Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Sarda » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:35 pm

palmbeacher wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:17 pm
Sarda wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 pm
jbrodin wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:28 am
A helmet saved my life. A gust trew me into a tree during self launching my kite. I woke up in the hospital, I still don't remember the incident, but the state of the helmet is proof enough. I definetely never became less cautious because of wearing a helmet. Not that I think this will change any minds. In the end we all make our own choices and the risks associated with kiting is a part of why we even do it at all.

The point is did you self launch upwind of the trees relying on the helmet for protection from those trees? Did the helmet affect your decision to self launch upwind of trees? Were the trees a consideration? Did you use your helmet area instinctively "for protection" to reduce risk of injury to your face/neck for example? (as arms ar usually on the bar, perhaps you can reason the implications of mitigation?)

If you had to kite naked, would your perception of risk increase, decrease or remain the same?

With or without a helmet that risk does not change and the possible outcomes are infinite.

"Shit happens" it's true, to some more than others.

Lastly, has your decision making been affected in any way when self launching upwind of trees since your unplanned event resulting in a trip to hospital or relying on the same outcome?
This is such a dumb argument. Clearly, jbrodin did not assess this risk (he will now). A helmet can help lives in situations that aren't calculated. As soon as you start kiting around other people there is a risk factor you don't control. Let's say you are kiteboarding in Cape Town and somebody makes a megaloop 200 meters upwind which you don't see coming (and you do neither). Would you rather wear a helmet when he comes at your head with his board full force?
There is no argument. Are you having an argument?
How sure are you that he will now assess the situation?
Is there another term for an "uncalculated situation"?
Situational awareness is quite possibly the largest contributing factor in any unplanned event.

Should kites in Cape Town all be wearing high viz and reflective bars on their personal gear and kites? Should there be a kiter proximity limit of 1400 meters?
Last edited by Sarda on Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Sarda » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:43 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:29 pm
Sarda wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 pm

The point is did you self launch upwind of the trees
Um, Pretty much every launch spot we have is upwind of something I don't especially want to slam into. If it requires a perfectly open area with hundreds of meters of safe downwind ground, most of us would never be able to kite.

I take great care in launching and landing my kite but every once in a while there are still hiccups. None that have ended in injury, but some that have damaged gear. Anyway, It's unreasonable to think you can avoid all potential accidents with good judgement alone. They are accidents and helmets are simply a mitigation. Like I said. I wear one as much for sun protection and warmth as I do for impact protection. It has served me well for all three.

Don't wear one if you don't want to. I have absolutely no problem with that. If I forget my helmet, I still go kiting.
Do you have a choice?
Is diminished responsibility a good excuse for poor judgement?
There is no such thing as an "accident"

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:56 pm

We have a grand total of one kite launch in town and there are trees, so the choice is launch with due caution or don't kite.

And there are most definitely accidents just as sure as there are mistakes. No one is infallible.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Flyingseb » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:29 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:08 pm
vannibombonato wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 am
I have spent years visiting an hospital where people with brain damages are kept, and i can tell you that in his Inferno Dante could not imagine something even close to what i've witnessed many times.
And i'm willing to spend 10 minutes per day into possibly helping someone not to end there.

There is a micro, micro chance for this to happen, i know that, but it's enough for me to post.
Yeah, the real dive into the psyche would be how so many of my fellow experienced kiters can be so heartless to spread thier viral infection of "stupid excuses to not wear a helmet".

I mean just in the lives that have been lost or utterly ruined because some beginner saw an experienced kiter not wearing a helmet, and decided not to themselves......... I guess I couldn't live with myself if it was my own vanity that caused the death or life altering injury of one of those beautiful people who share the same passion as me.

So on my side of the debate, the feelings part is that I wear a helmet all the time not just to protect others. I also wear one all the time, so I am not an excuse for others not to. It's almost like my care and respect for others overrides my own self conciousness and desire to be respected.
Same here :thumb:

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby edt » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 pm

I would be careful about making absolute statements like "of course helmets make you safer.". There have been quite a few studies on how much wearing helmets on a bicycle reduces death rates and the result is it is zero effect. Zero. Why this is nobody knows. After all helmets help for motorcycles why not bicycles?

Now for motorcycles we know for sure they prevent fatalities. Take a guess how much they prevent. 50% or more? To my surprise is roughly one third. All these years it's been drummed into me always wear a helmet in a motorcycle and when I used to ride one I always did. However it doesn't help as much as I always thought.

We will never get a study showing how much helmets help prevent fatalities in kiteboarding and if it takes decades and millions of dollars to get such inconclusive results for bicycles and motorcycles we will never know for sure how much it helps for kiteboarding. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it does.

So be nice please and don't be too sure of yourself. I think helmets help but I don't wear one. I do wear helmets in a bunch of other activities so I'm not anti helmet. And I might start wearing one in the future for kiteboarding after all I wear one bicycling even though the statistics say it does not help at all.


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