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633 too small, but...?

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fluidity
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby fluidity » Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:04 am

633 is not the square cm in area? I am almost 115kg and my newest wing design is only 765 sq cm. If I can plane my board then I can foil on the wing but it does have minimal roll stability, I am putting a little more excersise in small fast movements to keep under control, it would make a good mid wind wing for someone 75kg or lighter. I think it would not be a good learning wing for anyone more than 40kg though, it's high aspect.

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby SolarSet » Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:09 am

fluidity wrote: 633 is not the square cm in area? I am almost 115kg and my newest wing design is only 765 sq cm. If I can plane my board then I can foil on the wing but it does have minimal roll stability, I am putting a little more excersise in small fast movements to keep under control, it would make a good mid wind wing for someone 75kg or lighter. I think it would not be a good learning wing for anyone more than 40kg though, it's high aspect.
633 is width on front wing and it have 1200cm2 surface

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fluidity
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby fluidity » Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:14 am

SolarSet wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:09 am
fluidity wrote: 633 is not the square cm in area? I am almost 115kg and my newest wing design is only 765 sq cm. If I can plane my board then I can foil on the wing but it does have minimal roll stability, I am putting a little more excersise in small fast movements to keep under control, it would make a good mid wind wing for someone 75kg or lighter. I think it would not be a good learning wing for anyone more than 40kg though, it's high aspect.
633 is width on front wing and it have 1200cm2 surface
I have looked the 633 up. The aspect ratio is extremely low. I have tried this experiment on a foil early on to see what would happen and the problem is not so much surface drag, but drag from the wing tip vorticies. There are ways to design a wing so that this does not happen but in this wing it looks to be a substantial drag issue. With a kite, it affects the size of kite you need but not your strength and tenacity as the pull of the kite can be more than 80% through your harness, the arm load is light. But for this front foil and wing surfing, you will tire much faster. The small winglets will reduce wing tip vorticies a small amount but you will not go consistently fast enough to reduce them significantly. A rider will have enough to get the taste for winging but will be significantly handicapped on ease of sessions by the high drag of the foil which will be borne by the arms.

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby SolarSet » Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:26 am

fluidity wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:14 am
SolarSet wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:09 am
fluidity wrote: 633 is not the square cm in area? I am almost 115kg and my newest wing design is only 765 sq cm. If I can plane my board then I can foil on the wing but it does have minimal roll stability, I am putting a little more excersise in small fast movements to keep under control, it would make a good mid wind wing for someone 75kg or lighter. I think it would not be a good learning wing for anyone more than 40kg though, it's high aspect.
633 is width on front wing and it have 1200cm2 surface
I have looked the 633 up. The aspect ratio is extremely low. I have tried this experiment on a foil early on to see what would happen and the problem is not so much surface drag, but drag from the wing tip vorticies. There are ways to design a wing so that this does not happen but in this wing it looks to be a substantial drag issue. With a kite, it affects the size of kite you need but not your strength and tenacity as the pull of the kite can be more than 80% through your harness, the arm load is light. But for this front foil and wing surfing, you will tire much faster. The small winglets will reduce wing tip vorticies a small amount but you will not go consistently fast enough to reduce them significantly. A rider will have enough to get the taste for winging but will be significantly handicapped on ease of sessions by the high drag of the foil which will be borne by the arms.
not an expert in foil design nor ridden W633 but to my understanding low aspect of this foil wing make it very playful and agile in turns at some cost of max speed but people are reporting to go pretty fast on W633 for size on wing.

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby galewarning » Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:47 pm

Update: Friend of mine is going to let me use his Moses W790 front wing. Supposedly it will bolt to the Phantasm fuse. Will soon find out next week...

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:50 pm

SolarSet wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:26 am
not an expert in foil design nor ridden W633 but to my understanding low aspect of this foil wing make it very playful and agile in turns at some cost of max speed but people are reporting to go pretty fast on W633 for size on wing.

Almost correct.

Yes it is a lot more playful, but max speed is really good also.

The cost of both these big advantages, is glide at higher aoa's is very poor.

So if you want to glide on small waves with very little (wave) power, you need a big span (slow turning) wing, or a small high AR wing.

So it depends on what you seek when winging, glide or agility - and you could also find a compromise.
Whereas with a kite you dont need glide, but most will enjoy the super fast turning and almost impossible to stall at low speeds or tight turns - which the 633 and similar has :rollgrin:
If okay powerful waves you dont need the glide much, and can enjoy the more lively wing.

I cant really enjoy too low glide on a wingfoil, whereas it is perfect for me on a kitefoil.
But I also dislike too high span and glidings foilwings, when winging, as they turn like crap.

8) Peter

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby bkkite » Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:32 pm

Isn't the 633 basically a Infinity 63 wing? Which is the wing that Slingshot includes as the Fkite default wing for people learning to foil?

At your weight, I don't think it would be a bad wing to start with?

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby StellaBlu » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:34 pm

Some of these responses are from people who have clearly never winged and are extrapolating from kite foiling. Very different power inputs between these two practices and very different foil requirements. On a wing like the 633 you will need to be constantly powered, which isn't how most people are winging. A higher aspect wing will glide, allowing for lighter power input.

Winging on a low aspect wing is doable, but it is NOT ideal for almost any application and is NOT for a beginner. Foils recommended for winging are generally 6+ AR (often closer to 8-10). The 633 is barely a 3. the W790 is a low 4's AR and will probably work better than the 633, but its still low aspect.

I definitely recommend using it if its what you've got, but your progression will be very challenging, and winging might not make sense until you try a higher AR setup.
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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby galewarning » Tue May 24, 2022 5:16 pm

Update, after my first half-dozen sessions with the Moses W790 [68cm mast in shallow SPI water].
Grafting a Moses front foil to a SS fuse - Even though the curve of the Moses wing against the Phantasm fuselage doesn't exactly match, the W790 mounted to the Phantasm 710 fuselage works just fine.
Maybe it's because I can already kite foil [still can't step my feet in a jibe] and windsurfed for over 30 years, but I was able to mow the grass after the 3rd session using the W790. After my 5th and 6th session, I am able to get over to toe side and stay on foil a bit. Of all the three foiling disciplines I've tried, wing foiling is the easiest.
I was also surprised how maneuverable the 790 was. It's not a snappy as my 633 kiting, but winging with a SS 105L I-Fly was very easy to s-turn. OT, but I was also surprised how rigid the inflatable I-Fly 105 was and the Vayu wings I used, 4.4 and 5.4, allowed my brain to tap some of that windsurfing experience.
I wonder when I will be ready to appreciate a foil like the Phantasm 926?

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Re: 633 too small, but...?

Postby joekitetime » Wed May 25, 2022 4:46 pm

galewarning wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:47 pm
Update: Friend of mine is going to let me use his Moses W790 front wing. Supposedly it will bolt to the Phantasm fuse. Will soon find out next week...
I winged and kited on the Moses 790 for a season, amidst other foils to test. Sadly I'd say, or maybe not sadly, foils have progressed impressively. And, as someone has pointed out in this thread, kite foiling is different than wing foiling in that whereas the kite provides mega power 98% of the time, the wing provides 0% of the power 20% of the time. That being said, being one of the addicts who kites 50% of the time and wings 50% of the time, and rides the same board/foil often, I can agree wholeheartedly with other posters who make this conclusion: you need mega power when winging with foils designed for kiting - with one exception - Mike's Lab. His foil designs are just off the richter, and his top riders are now interchanging his super high aspect foils for either sport. His foils have such incredible lift and low stall speed that they work for either - they can handle high speeds for kiting, and slow speeds for winging. Guys are now having two boards built - one for winging and one for kiting - but using the same foil to slap on to the board for the day's conditions.

But I digress. Back to the 790 and 633. Again, the 633 was my favorite all time foil, for kiting (but I rode it on the 380 stab). The 790 was initially built for windfoiling I think. It wasn't good for kiting in my opinion, and wasn't that great for winging. It was "satisfactory". Limited range, limited carvability, limited pumping. Sure, it works, but just mediocre overall.

What is sad, because it kills my wallet, is that foil progression is such that you just really cannot afford not to spend the money since you are spending the time to ride the best stuff out there. It really makes a difference.

I love to experiment and I ride everything, and in the oddest combos, but the high end foils make a world of difference.
Last edited by joekitetime on Wed May 25, 2022 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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