Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks

[C Johnson]

I used to have several flysurfers.

great kites.

I was especially fond of the Speed 2 12m and the Psycho 4 15m even though the P4 didn't come from the factory tuned correctly.

I had a 17m Speed 1.5, Psycho 3 13m, Pulse 2 12m, Warrior 7m modded

I also had a 12m and 15m pair of Peter Lynn Phantoms for awhile.

I found I didn't enjoy flying those kites above 25kts. It was just too much power and too unstable.

I have friends around here that fly foils. they don't go out when its nuking. The winds get really gusty and shifty here in the northwest and the stronger the wind the worse it seems to get.

There are a lot of inflatable kites that even have trouble in our gusty conditions.

for the nuking days. most people around here have been switching to lower aspect designs with delta influence so that they sit deeper in the window and are less prone to overflying.

this isn't really a foil vs SLE issue. its a high aspect vs low aspect issue. low aspect kites are generally more stable then high aspect kites. it is more complicated then that but the aspect ratio of the kite seems to play a more significant role in my experience in stability then the canopy rigidity does.

Cheers,

[alexrider]

I used to have several flysurfers...
....
this isn't really a foil vs SLE issue. its a high aspect vs low aspect issue. low aspect kites are generally more stable then high aspect kites. it is more complicated then that but the aspect ratio of the kite seems to play a more significant role in my experience in stability then the canopy rigidity does...

You are quite right in stating "this isn't really a foil vs SLE issue. its a high aspect vs low aspect issue".
Lower A/R means the kite sits further back in the window and is less prone to tucking.
That's why I can wait to get the Viron for those exceptionally gusty winds.

In your assortment of kites, you didn't cite the ones from FS I would take in nasty conditions above 25 knots: the Pulse2 6 (C lines trimmed to -2) and even better, the Psycho4 6.
The Sp3 12 is very stable indeed, but not for nuking winds, given its size. Shame they don't make in in size 10!
The older generation FS (Warriors, Psycho3, Speed<3, Pulse2s) don't have the wind range of the latest.
Cheers
Alex

[Kamikuza]

Done for now...let the bashing begin.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com

Beginning the bashing

2. Yes and no ... my experience this year with the Speed 2 19m was that it would simply drift downwind in front of me, gradually falling out of the sky onto a wingtip on the water and then back into the air as I tensioned the lines by riding crosswind again. There is always the potential though - I luffed it often by mishandling - sheeting out instead of redirecting 'jumps'. Which is why I love my FS for light winds and prefer my SLEs and arcs when the wind picks up ...
3. arcs, baby yeah! Nuff said.
4. Agreed. But again in my experience, I can work my 19m across the window gently and keep it flying while the LEIs are hindenburging - there just seems to be an absolute bottom end for NO FLYING at all - even for guys who I KNOW are better kiters than me, not just think they are cos they been kitesurfing longer
5. So when PMU jumps in and paste-spams threads that aren't addressed to him, he got owned. Gotcha

... kite inverts this year ... Arcs = 1. Speed2 19 = 2 but both my fault, I know what I did now, which was the same thing I did to the ... Crossbow = 1.
Yikes - the Crossbow took the longest to reinvert on the water and I had to unhook and untangle the lines around the bar for some reason.

[crash&burn]

thank you bob,


To clarify, I did say gusts to 55 and when they came it sounded like a jetliner landing over my head. I wasn't out there rippin the sh-t out of it either. It was survival kiting but as long as I kept in check with my kite I was in control of my situation the whole time.

I want to know if foils would handle it and PMU came up with my exact worries

The fact is that ram airs become progressively less rideable and more dangerous as the wind picks up. Because they lack internal rigidity, they have the following problems in high winds:
1) Tendency to collapse asymmetrically in gusty conditions, often leading to explosive openings in the middle of the wind window.
2) Tendency to surge to the edge of the window, luff, and collapse.
3) Tendency to sit deeper in the window, making them harder to depower and use edging to control power.

Somebody immediately dismissed this as rubbish

so if that is rubbish then somebody post some pics or video, some visual evidence of foils aggressively handling high winds, waves if ya got em. Like I said before please no pro's overpowered and boosting, this does not require overall aggressive kite flying(except the loops the guy does to keep his kite with him) I want to see full use of the window.

based on the lack of posts with any weight to them PMU's perception of foils is becoming more valid.

[voodoospirit]

cant help u , i use ARCs , not foils in high winds.

[crash&burn]

foils, arcs, whatever

[duloid]

hey crash, if you go over all the post everybody said that "foil" are doing great in low winds and a lot of guys using LEIs for high winds... so that's is fact they are better for strong wind and gusty conditions 30 - whatever knots ... you are the winner and you can celebrate with PMU ...
that's obvious ... I agree with you and congratulation
can't tell the PL kites are ... didn't fly them, but saw a guy kite landboarding with PL Venom 16m while everybody else were on FS 8 - 10m (wind about 18 kn) and he was doing ok ..... but in low winds it's opposite ...

take it as a fact that inflatable collapse in low wind, wind drop ofs, can't relaunch them + all the air leaks ... broken valves ... never ending repairs ..

every kite has some pros and cons ... so WTF

thanks C Johnson for advice of not using tube to name the LEI, SLE or inflatable kites
so let put is straight about the "foil" kites

the proper name is cell kites, two types ... open cell kites (Ozone, HQ, Airush) and closed cell kites (Flysurfer, HQ) (which are water re-launchable) and ARC or twinskin kites (Peter Lynn) (also water re-launchable)

you guys you mix them all together and each of the kites is designed for different riding style, conditions, each brand got more product lines to fit the customer needs .. same as all the companies producing inflatable kites ... just see how many different inflates are on market now C, delta, bow etc.

it's stupid to talk about them in general ...

PMU just tell us clearly what do you want and don't bother any more
why you are always starting your posts with aggravating ... to be against somebody ...
your posts gonna make any cell foil kite user to switch to inflatable ... because we already switch the opposite way ... and if somebody moved back not because of you and your comments, but personal experience ...
if you don't like cell kites ... that's ok ... many people don't and many people do ...
ride what ever you want to ride and let us know ... give us a review of your kites, boards or other gear ... or it's just about the penis pump me up and copy, paste thing

peace

[toyletbowl]

hey Bobby..

1st I agree foil collapse same as tube ..
2nd wind drop day 10 to 20 kn. means ... wind picks up and dies ... the clever ones got it .. I didn't say generally wind range 10 - 20 kn.
will go over my old videos when was day like that and friend of mine was re-launching, self rescuing him self several times, while my kite didn't touch the water....If I'm lucky I still have them ... if not you have to trust me as I trust you that you and your friends were riding in 55 knots wind
3rd I'm not talking only about kiteboading, compere the performance of kites on land and snow too.. not only water ... backcountry snowkiting, high mountain snowkiting ... etc.

peace

wow...some of you guys need to read and understand better what we are saying.

@Kami...were talking about small kites in strong, gusty crappy winds. Come back to us when you are willing to talk to the topic.

@dulloid...1) just to be 100% clear, a modern HD LEI doesn't collapse. It has a rigid frame. Rigid frames keep their shape better. Show me a modern HD LEi with the wind tips tucking or completely collapsing please. From experience, I had a Speed 2 15m do 2 scary things. 1...the speed 2 completely collapsed and then reopened with a back breaking pull that one time pulled me right off my skis and I'm an expert skier. 2...had it collapse and then tangle up on the snow and it took me 45 minutes to reset the entire kite...I had this happen 2 times. To be real honest, I really wanted to love the sped 2's, but it was not the kite for me. Too many variables from session to session where my HD LEI was much easier to use and predictable. A modern HD LEI cannot collapse the same way as the speeds did.
2) No offense, but I could care less about a video showing a kite hitting the water and you having to rescue him. That proves nothing at all about a kites ability for handling gusty strong winds.
3) I agree with you that it's cross function conditions. Riding on snow, it became scary going at 35-45+ in 15-20 MPH winds and then flying downwind on a transition and riding now faster than the kite and having it go all limp. If i do the same thing on my HD LEI and it drifts with me, but the rigid frame keeps it's shape.

Inverting? Haven't had many if any inverts in years. 1st and 2nd gen bows in smaller sizes were scary twitchy, but the current kites are much much better and stable in stronger winds.

For what it's worth...I think the FS Speed in an impressively engineered kite, but it just wasn't for me and it requires attention to bridle adjustments session after session.

Peace and good will to all.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com

[voodoospirit]

foils, arcs, whatever

just to point out how constructive/realistic that quote is.

SLE/hybrid,C, bow, whatever, all the same.

@toiletbowl

i agree with u with the speed², it s not a drifing kite ( barely drifting anyway) and wasn t very good in gusty wind (alp snowkiting and kitesurfing), that s why i tested out a bunch of big LEIs (rigid frame, more stable but smaller aspect ratio, less powerful) to replace it but they had too many drawbacks yet for water so i tried out a speed3 that solved all my problems with the speed², it drift way better, wayyyy more stable, never did the same thing as the speed².

now for ARC, i didn t find a better drifing kite (tried at different windspeed, FULL downwind, downhill to make them fall), they are so-so in their low end but the high end is impressive.
those are my high winds kites. id rather be out with them than any kites. they have a C-shape behaviour tho , so riding them is not like bow or SLE...
i got a PL charger and tested it out in a gusty wind of 6(kite was backstalling to the ground) -25+(i was lifted untrimmed-bar in)knots all the time,it was a pain (kite kept changing shape, hardly stable, but when i saw the LEIs (helix, swtichblade, bandit, C4 ) collapsing and make some beautiful hinderburg ( the wind was very bad.)....i felt i could be worse lol

[TommyDelly]

First of all, all of you (and me now) are SHEEPLE! Just because some pump me up my ass deepthroater started a lame thread, you (we xD) have to reply and FEED THIS TROLL!

About the Troll, there are only 2 posible scenarios, and those are: he works for FS or he has some serious brain damage and is therefore retarded (and i mean it with all respect and dont want to insult anybody) and that is not funny at all, but sad!

Now i can agree with everyone, foils are better for low wind and LEI for stronger wind.

@crash and toylet (especially crash), dude YOU are the poser here, even if you ride like frikin Aaron or Ruben, you are still a poser, good riders are mostly mellow and dont need to say or hear that they are good, they just ride, you comment and pump your ego (mayb its pump my ego up, prolly) all the time and now you post a photo of yourself in a neoprene suit POSING on the beach and say you ride in 55 knots, and both of you demanding foil riders to put up a video or photo of NONPRO, NONGOOD foil riders??????!!!!! riding in 55 knotsWTF? Let me wake your poser ass up, but YOU HAVE NOT PUT A VIDEO OR PHOTO OF A NONPRO, NONGOOD RIDER RIDING A LEI IN 55 OR EVEN STRONG WIND! You havent even put up anything else exept YOU POSING IN A NEOPREN ON THE BEACH! DD

So to sum it up you guys have not put anything on here that would show riding in nuking winds but you hammer foil riders coz they havent put a video....or w8 no they did post a video hahaha so funny, they actually did post a foil riding in super nuking winds....(this reminds me of the thread with the 10k bet, same fcking shit just different extremes)

Now please all, can you (us) sheeple start reading the posts and not just spaming the same crap around. For real, everybody is just repeating the same crap, everyone of you is becoming PMU!