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What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:04 am

I don't think it's vital, but a small trainer is great for teaching kite handling reactions without being punished, and practicing without paying for lessons. All the talk about bad habits doesn't make sense to me.

Bnthere -- how does in front, upwind work?

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby alamos_kiter » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:08 am

bnthere wrote:...I certainly don't recommend a trainer kite (stunt kite, kids toy) as an essential, or even necessarily beneficial first step ... can make plenty of arguments for the detrimental habits, expectations, and effects it can actually have for many students ...

I recommend a kiteboarding lesson with a good school and instructors. less time, better info, more results....

... no good instructors stand behind a student holding their harness, especially beginners, that's the surest sign of someone that doesn't know what they are doing. in front and on the upwind side, for any coaches that don't know (and iko and pasa reps, since you guys don't talk about important things like that in your certification courses)

www.prokitesouthpadre.com
I would be interested to hear these detrimental habits.

And you guys, in your wisdom, teach noobs with a full size kite, on the beach, just upwind of a power line. Bravo. You seem to be all "good school and instructors".
Screen Shot 2015-08-22 at 10.03.02.png


And "in front and on the upwind side", is it?

Screen Shot 2015-08-22 at 10.38.05.png

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Coloradokiter » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:09 pm

Gee, that pic is quality. Full kite, on land, no helmet, no impact vest and power lines down wind.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby bnthere » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:50 pm

oh ya, stoking the fire .... making it personal there huh.


ya, advertising is what it is, and a good record is as well

upwind and in front until you're confident the person you are responsible for can comfortably handle a kite. downwind side still better than behind, but not until your person has everything under control.

from in front the client can see you, therefore you can positively influence their mental state, keeping them relaxed and happy, not stressed. you are also in the right position to hold the sheeting line at or just above the harness loop, putting your body weight directly on the kite and not on the rider, you can also block the client with your shoulder to give them support if they are moving / falling forward, you can also access the control bar and the flying lines to manipulate the kite, and you can access the primary release. doing it this way you and you're client wont go for unwanted rides, and your kites wont get slammed (as much).



I don't use trainers in our school because we don't need to, we take pride in teaching our clients to fly 4 line kiteboarding kites, and accomplish not only riding but good kite handling and decision making, and doing it with less overall time invested, energy expended, suffering, and cost for the clients.

I don't hate trainers, and any kite flying experience is somewhat valuable, but 2 line stunt kites on a bar have very few similarities to 4 line LEIs. the possible bad habits / expectations mostly revolve around holding on tight, constantly holding on, always holding on with 2 hands etc. seen plenty of people go for hard runs and faceplants thanks to trainers, while watching many clients successfully learn and become kiteboarders without every crashing themselves hard on the ground.

use em if you need to, we don't.

and we got tons of gear, including kickass waverunners radio helmets vests, everything. it is used when its necessary. there is always something downwind somewhere, the question is how far and how windy is it. (and these days: is that even an actual picture?)

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby L0KI » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:46 pm

In a location like what Bnthere is working with, they can teach without a trainer.
Bnthere is still standing behind the kiter despite all the words that got posted, so maybe time to practice what he is preaching here.
There are lots of people who have learned to kiteboard in locations that are less than as ideal as the one that Bnthere enjoys, in those cases, a trainer kite was a great idea.
I'm not sure many people here are suggesting stunt kites for training purposes.
A good foil is not a stunt kite, it's a traction kite, and traction kite training is a great idea before going in the water.
When you are brand new and have never flown a kite and you are paying solid money for each half hour that you are touching this thing that you've never touched before, it is difficult to gain lots of experience (that you will retain and keep in your muscle memory) in your first two or three hours.
You can't log hours easily and cheaply with rank beginner lessons like you can by buying a good foil to learn on.
My 3.3M and 5.5M foils that I learned on did not encourage me to hang on, hang on, they are large enough to teach you very quickly to let go, and they would fall and be very safe when you let go.

One of the things that is very interesting on this forum, is that people speak from their own particular circumstances where they live and kite, and they often do not consider that there is a huge variation in conditions that many learn in and ride in.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby bnthere » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:25 pm

standing behind what im saying .... stand wherever when your client has things under control, stand where I recommend while you are teaching someone to fly and you'll have a lot of success with a lot less sketch, its free advise take it or leave it, but for those teaching kiteboarding you should take it.

y'all might want to see where one of those pics came from. normally kite lessons on South Padre go down when it is windy, but doesn't mean great things can't happen when its not. Cool kid here, first time, nice 2 hr intro session 9m Blade Trigger in about 7-10mph, if that. Rocked it out the next day.

https://youtu.be/R916K6J8Izw

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby L0KI » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:16 am

So, what did he get out that lesson that I did not get on my first day with a good foil? ...that cost me $75, and I still have it.
I also used that foil to landboard my ass off.
I see that he learned to back himself up or walk forward, which is a static flying lesson.
I see that he learned to loop the the kite in light wind.
I see that he learned about a kite stalling and backing down in light wind.
All good stuff, all part of what you learn messing with a foil, but if I'm just learning on my first day and I'm at a busier location that is not a completely deserted area that you are lucky enough to have, then I don't want to drop a 10M Trigger and not know what to do when I do.
With a foil, if I drop it, it's dead and not tumbling.
So again, I think where you are can certainly effect what works well and what does not.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby bnthere » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:50 am

ah ya, he (like all of them) learned basic kite handling (although he got introduced to a lot more kite handling skills than most due to the nature of the conditions), and how to use the leash system to disable his kite and when it is important to be ready to do that (after crashes, during self launches, etc etc) how to reset it and keep going, how to relaunch, how to approach assisted launching, to be aware of and respect the surroundings, to put the kite down when necessary, how to plan a session from rigging to riding to dw takeout point if necessary, you know all the stuff that get gone over many times in lessons because its too much to all stick the first time through.

I know what myself and my coaches are doing and the results we are getting: we get good results, we have highly satisfied and (equally important) not-sketchy post lessons clientele, we don't have clients hitting the dirt ever, we make money in 7-35mph, and im willing to share how. im not worried about scrutiny or criticism just try to keep it constructive.

and we don't use stunt kites, or recommend them as a necessary first step. the fact is virtually all of our clientele will be using 4 line LEIs to kiteboard in the water and on the snow, and that's what we teach them to use from the first minute, to help them make the most of their time with us. use trainers as a teaching tool if you think it helps, there are many ways to go about kiteboarding and teaching/learning kiteboarding.


South Padre is a great location, I have worked in many places (currently writing from the Magdalen Islands in far NE Quebec) and Padre definitely makes the teaching life a lot easier. Its conditions and geography etc really do allow for awesome results and a lot of lesson activity. The interesting thing about Padre is that there isn't a lot of business. I probably work less than 20% of the time I could if we had the clients. its kind of sad but lets me ride a lot (and travel).

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:01 am

Do you find you need to recap much of what you covered in previous lessons frequently? Sounds like information overload, could hamper retention.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby bnthere » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:10 am

yes it definitely is info overload

lessons and info etc are somewhat catered to the clientele ... is it someone that taking one lesson and then 'might be back again sometime' or is someone that signed up for a course and we are taking them out 4 or 5 times over the week or whatever, we are going to do it differently for each.

the client that has multiple session will get everything passed over many times. radios are key to increasing the amount of good info you can pass onto a client, for example you have them on a task like dw bodydrag or something and they are mastering it or at least doing what you want to see so you know they are skill building. now you can reiterate other info while they are working on their skill (for example reminding them to be ready to use their release after a crash as that is a likely time to develop a line tangle, or to be aware of their surroundings and estimate where they might come into the beach if they headed back now, or whatever.

its also the more basic info that gets and needs to be covered again and again, as people get good at handling the kites they are learning a lot on their own and retaining skills. its things like reminding them to line up dw of the edge of the wind during an assisted launch and then move upwind until they have the wind and are flying the kite, putting the kite down when they need to instead of trying to keep it flying while multitasking (like when messing with harness or helmet etc)

the one time client gets as much as we can, generally the focus is on kite flying and fun then backtracking to less exciting but critical info as things progress (and there are in the end extremely few one time clients, nearly everyone continues with more sessions either with us or down the road in the future at other places, a super high percentage of lesson clientele at least in my experience is in it to win it, not a lot of 1 time want to try its and then don't keep going)


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