Whoahh! "Strawman Hat Trick".......
Matteo V wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:18 pm
I am starting to see the pattern to your arguments. You create a new statement that is obviously true, in an attempt to mask your previous statement that was proved wrong or where another option was given. Things keep changing in your head. This is how you go on never admitting that you were wrong. Really look hard at what you did here. You may be doing it without knowing it. I guess you could call this a subconscious "straw man".
Let me apply my above statement to your most recent post.
LetsFlyaKite wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:52 pm
I don't get it, how am I wrong? There is nothing wrong with what I've said, I just feel that my way is better for a begginer who is going to thrash his kite. With a little bit of knowlege, that he will probably get later on anyway, he can make an educated decision when buying used gear. Not everyone around here has a million dollars in the bank.
The "not everyone has a million dollars in the bank" statement is true, but not the argument that I posing. This true statement is something that you continue to repeatedly refer to when faced with the opposing argument. The opposing argument that you need to refute is that, "A new kite will have a warranty (worth money), will not have been previously abused or improperly repaired (worth money too), will fly correctly and if not - be warrantied, and will be at the peak of it's resistance to abuse (more valuable than money to a beginner). Specifically, referencing it's resistance to abuse, a new kite will not spend as much time (and money) getting repaired because of the likely beginner mistakes everyone makes on the water. This means more time on the water for the beginner with a new kite, and more money saved in the long run on those first two kites." Please take the above argument and present evidence against it. If you can present convincing evidence showing the above is not true, you will have refuted the argument and won. But continually presenting a "straw man" against this argument makes your argument seem indefensible.
LetsFlyaKite wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:52 pm
With a little bit of knowlege, that he will probably get later on anyway, he can make an educated decision when buying used gear.
And even if you do not comprehend the straw man references, could you clarify the above statement's applicability in this situation. I think we may have a time line issue here. By that I mean, we are talking about a beginner in this situation...no? He will specifically NOT HAVE the chance to get this experience before the purchase of his first few kites......right? Actually I completely agree with your above statement and it even supports my argument for buying new kites at first. I am thinking you may have mistyped this sentence, actually meaning something else. If not, then you agree with my position that a beginner does not have the capability to evaluate used gear at the point of first purchasing gear. Thus new kites at first is a good idea.
LetsFlyaKite wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:52 pm
Matteo V wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:18 pm
That is good advice to give to a beginner! And if he crashes the kite too, would you say "his heart was not really in it to begin with"? Your above statement is idiotic to the point of me questioning whether it is even true for you. The OP is not an advanced kiter like you(?) or me. He is a beginner that will crash his kite. I fly a kite on the ocean that will rip to shreds if I drop it once in the surf.
Paragraph continues in original post but is cut here by LFK.
So you've never kept your kite in the air when you fall? You should try it sometime, because it will save wear and tear on your equipment. And a noob should not be riding in the surf, but that is at their own descresion, just like everything else in kiteboarding is...
Matteo V wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:18 pm
This is the sentence follows in the original paragraph and is linked to the previous sentence but is split from it to present another strawman. I too have not dropped this kite for 2 years in the surf. But 2 years ago, it did go in the surf and get a small canopy tear about 4cm long. If I gave that same kite to a beginner in flat water on a perfect day, it would come not back in one piece, or at least it would have about a meter of repair to do to the canopy.
That's why you patch up all your tears or don't buy kites with tears in them. Like I've said a million times already, look for any leaks or tears when you buy.
This shows that you are an intelligent person and a capable debater. To split my paragraph (linked ideas) into 2 parts is something that I would never think of. It is an excellent debate technique when arguing form a position of weakness if you do not get caught. But it is a strawman none the less. I never suggested that an inexperienced kiter give it a go in the surf. You split the quote right before I moved on to the fact that, while I kite old gear in the surf at my experience level, a beginner would destroy that gear on flatwater. The last statement is the one you need to refute, not claiming that I am saying a beginner give it a go in the surf. - I must say you have impressed me with this strawman. It was not hard to detect since I was looking for it, but most on this forum glance over long posts like yours and mine and never give them the scrutiny required to detect an out of context quote splice.
The last statement in the above by LFK is not really a strawman. It is an obviously true statement that is changing the argument to "how to buy used kites and/or repair them" that should be a completely separate thread. No one has really given any indication that they want to discuss this line of thinking. Rather, the debate is about having old gear that you have to fix (cheaper initially), vs having newer gear that you do not have to fix (more expensive initially). Debating old vs new is the subject. And given that it has been established the OP is a beginner, that also establishes that the OP is not capable of determining whether the used gear they are examining is in good condition or bad condition.
LetsFlyaKite wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:52 pm
And lets get this straight, if someone quits because their gear is wrecked, wouldn't you say their heart and soul isn't in it? I don't get how that's idiotic. When someone keeps on pushing even though they have wrecked gear or injuries, then yes, that is when their heart and soul is into the sport. I don't get how you cannot understand that...
Which brings us to the third straw man. The argument is not about perseverance, the argument is about a beginner having a positive initial experience while on the path to just getting upwind. Simply put, avoiding negative experiences is a good thing whether you are a determined beginner or not.
When you have a beginner that wrecks old gear (and has to pay for that repair) in the first few outings before having real success, there is a higher likely hood that the beginner in question will not want to kite regardless of their personal level of determination. And older gear, especially since a beginner cannot tell the difference between "lightly used" and "end of lifespan" gear, IS MUCH MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO BEING WRECKED BY A BEGINNER. Thus you are creating another chance for that beginner to have a bad experience, let alone the fact that the money saved on a new kite will go into repairing an old one, in the hands of a beginner.
With regards to the injury thing......well if you went out and broke your ankle and an arm due to a snapped bridal death spiral, but "your heart was in it" and you continued - you are either going to be an amazing kiter, or a newspaper obituary. Humans learn from their mistakes. In learning, we have a mechanism that stops us from doing some things, which others may be completely capable of doing, but we may not be able to. We stop ourselves typically when we find that we have the potential for a life ending or life altering injury. And yes, all boardsports carry risks, but the idea is to minimize them.
And LetsFlyaKite........you have my support.