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The Pansh A15, an A18 review

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:21 am

foilholio wrote:
Changes now from stock I have are 3:1 mixer, no C bridles, move and shortened 2 tip B bridles to C (yes technically some of C then still exists lol), shorten Z...

So implementation. I reinstate a 421 mixer and use the old B pulley to run the A funk...

Would you like a mixer pic to see what it converts to. You know a pic is a 1000 words and all...
So the mod is a like the speed1 system, except the A15 C-bridle is removed and the Speed1 C connections move to the A15 B connections?
A15-Mod.jpg
A15-Mod.jpg (24.85 KiB) Viewed 1069 times
Pictures are easier :think:

The Speed1 B-row is very close to the leading edge & A-row, where as the A15 B-row is very far away from the leading edge & A-row. The A15 C-row is so very far away from the leading edge and close to the trailing edge & Z-row, that it has little use for tension/lift, and the Z-row/lines have enough camber change/effect that the C-row could be deleted?

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:39 pm

...which makes me wonder if a simpler 2:1 might work, be easier to tune and reduce bar depower throw
A15-Mod-2.jpg
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foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:26 pm

Yes you got the first picture right. Except minor detail I connect the pulley to the pulley top/hole and not the top of the B main.

Also don't forget my moving 2 tip bridles from B to C and shortening. This is very important.

Second picture, if you read back is basically what Kiterfromgermany tried ( he still used C though). He gave up on it for I think the reasons I postulated. That is it won't increase camber so will be less stable depowered. Sorry yes I said mixer that increases camber is more stable. That is because they can have a reducing camber phase. It both reduces and increases camber, very confusing sorry.
PugetSoundKiter wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:21 am
The Speed1 B-row is very close to the leading edge & A-row, where as the A15 B-row is very far away from the leading edge & A-row. The A15 C-row is so very far away from the leading edge and close to the trailing edge & Z-row, that it has little use for tension/lift, and the Z-row/lines have enough camber change/effect that the C-row could be deleted?
Yes. But also could be said I tested it and it works L-)

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:35 pm

Quite liking my mod more the more I use it.

I think maybe there is a bit more of a tendency for the tips to collapse when first inflating. I know when I first did the mod the tips could collapse and then would not open. I moved the tip bridles, as there existing placement was obviously wrong, adjusted their lengths and all was good. The kite has no issue once inflated, but I think I will play with the tip area a little more.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:25 am

I haven't been using the kite a lot but enough to notice some things. When you lose C, Z becomes very critical. If you imagine without Z engaged then normally C would then hold, without C then it is onto B. This gives a pronounced effect that if Z is slack you lose more power than you would have with still having C, simply because less of the airfoil is being pulled into the airflow. C Also helps quite a bit to hold the airfoil shape for a better L/D, if it is tuned for that.

I have started adjusting the kite again, modding it further. I have two problems, kite collapses on a side if flying on A lower in the window and then I would also like to improve the L/D. The collapsing may not be entirely or at all a C removal thing. I have had many foils that do this and can live quite easily by just holding the bar in a bit. I think fixing some AoA at the tip by attaching the B to A might lessen or fix it. My thinking is that the tip seems to initiate the collapse so prevent it and so prevent the rest collapsing. I could arc A more, but don't really want to lessen the PA and with it performance.

I have so far added extensions to Z longest at the tip at about 6 inches going in 5 bridles reducing about an inch each. I then shortened Z about 2 inchs and removed a shortening loop from each or the 2 C attachments leaving only 1 attachment at the very tip shortened. This has gained a significant L/D improvement, the kite flys very much further forward. I haven't seen a degradation in the ability to open the kite. Relieving Z at the tip I guess allows more tension on C, hence I could then make them longer.

Reasoning for lengthening Z at the tip is I could see it getting much too pulled. Effect would stall the tips and also cause them to potentially collapse. I think I will lengthen them further and adjust the graduations a bit. It is hard to see from flyer perspective the exact lengths to smoothen things out. I can see now that bridles pulling the canopy to align with the sewn shape, gives the smoothest shape and should in theory give the best L/D "if" the sewn shape is designed like that.

I think the concept of 3 bridle row kites is quite promising. The placement of the A15 bridles attachments is not quite right for it but still seems to work quite well. Ultimately I may alter a few of these as well.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:54 pm

Collapsing on A seems to only be in very light wind, side slack which all foils do and bad turbulence.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:30 am

I have connected B at the tip to A, which was previously unconnected. I adjusted to a variety of lengths quite different, the effect on the tip shape was quite dramatic. I am so far with it about an inch longer than the very tip A bridle, the connection or cascade point for both being the same. It holds a bit of tension as you can see it pull on the fabric, but no where near as much as where I started at about 9 inches shorter :-) . It would seem this is a necessary bridle point to have as it unlocks some more performance. I will need to test it more to see it's full effects but I recommend using it so far. It would seem without it the tip shape is no quite correct and as such poor L/D would be produced there.

I further lengthened the 2 nearest tip Z bridles. I think they are close to about right to give even AOA across the span at overall higher AOA. This would be a good mod I think for any other foils where you can see tip AOA greater than the rest of the wing and would like to increase L/D at the cost of turning. Maybe for racing and jumping.

Overall I think I will need to fine tune all these lengths further, but I am amazed at the tolerance to adjustment so far. In that it would seem you can change them quite a bit and not end up with an unusable kite.

To explain things a little, Increased AoA at the tip is easily seen as the rear tip pulling down more than the rest of the wing. It is a result of reduced cord or width of the tip with similar bridle placements resulting in the same bar movement therefore producing a bigger effect there. It can be altered by changing the cord, i.e. a rectangular kite, changing the bridle attachments, as seen on later models foils, or using different ratio mixer for different parts of the wing, like on the Flysurfer Race, or as I am doing by changing bridle lengths ( and attachments).
Last edited by foilholio on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:24 am

New adjustments seem to have improved, power, upwind and stability. Turning is a little worse. Overall very good so far.

I had a look at the FS Race line plan. Appears I was not exactly right with what they are doing with the mixer but it is interesting none the less. They are pulling A in on the tips, and B more on the tips. A being pulled will lessen the B pull but it is still more, but it also reduces the Z pull. Quite interesting, but the really interesting bit is no Z or B attachment at the tip and the other placements. I think I will try disconnect C and Z on the A15 and some other kites. I think it should give a winglet like affect and further improve L/D. The increase in how far my A15 flys forward now is actually a bit crazy.
Last edited by foilholio on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:32 pm

Disconnecting Z at the tip deserves it's own thread.

viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2402393


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