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High Y vs Low V bars

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nothing2seehere
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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby nothing2seehere » Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:34 am

Then of course there is the Airush lift which is designed to fly low V and high Y depending on wind strength. I think the lift has the highest Y split point of any 4 line kite. Makes you think there must be something in low vs high split points.

Might be a pulley thing though?

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby andylc » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:14 pm

I’ve flown my Bandits on the wrong setting more than once and only noticed after the session. Difference is subtle. Maybe not for all kites though.

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby kitexpert » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:32 pm

edt wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:13 pm


it's 2 or 3 pounds a kg or two effectively pinching the wingtips inwards. Go set your kite on it's edge like you are going to launch it and then place a small sandbag on the tip. It will deform.
When kite is on the ground having no bridle support it is completely different situation to when it is flying and bridle is loaded. So your speculation of deforming is very suspicious. And if there was small deformation it is very questionable if it could have any effect on how kite flies. Kites are not that small objects, few cm's here or there on its shape doesn't mean anything.

You can tweak canopy curve and curve location settings of kite endlessly. And like always, some properties of kite get better and some worse for different values (shapes).
edt wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:13 pm
So it's not the amount that matters so much as exactly where the extra pressure is creating by moving the V to a high Y. The place the pressure is deforms the kite quite a bit in some models (others it doesn't deform it as much).
First we should remember there isn't any high Y bars available. All have low V's but some have few meters extension from bar to front line split. All LEI kites have short wing span and small tow point separation, so flying line angles differ only few degrees between low V and "high" Y. LEI kites have also some structural stiffness and quite a lot canopy curvature which make these issues even less significant. Extreme example is C-kite which has "natural" flying shape, having no bridle at all.

(Actually it is possible to make soft C-shaped kite without any rigidity or support on LE, so called sled kite)

I've flied 14m LEI kite with a 12m line set. Then front line split is much closer to kite than in any "high" Y bar. Certainly kite flies differently than with 24m lines but having very short lines is much bigger factor than high Y "compression".
edt wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:13 pm

while other kites were designed with the high Y in mind and won't fly properly without that extra pinching on the tips.
If you go for extremely high Y it starts to matter for bridle design and canopy curve. However there isn't any reason to do that and it makes design of safety more difficult and clumsy. Also line sets become nonstandard and kiter loses certain practical advantages of having low V with equal line lengths.

I guess main reason for "high Y" bars is some manufacturers want to sell their own bars to customers, or try to prevent them using standard low V bars. Certainly there isn't any principal advantage to have front line split few meters from the bar.

If you think some kite manufacturers have studied and tested all different Y split point heights and found some optimal height I can assure that is not the case. The whole idea of that is rather silly for anyone who knows something about the kite design.
Last edited by kitexpert on Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby kitexpert » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:49 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:34 am
Then of course there is the Airush lift which is designed to fly low V and high Y depending on wind strength. I think the lift has the highest Y split point of any 4 line kite. Makes you think there must be something in low vs high split points.

Might be a pulley thing though?
Converting same line set from low V to high Y makes front lines effectively shorter. This is same as depowering kite which is of course useful in high winds. Of course you can have same effect in "normal" kites by attaching steering lines further from the kite like many do if they fear being overpowered.

In high wind speeds small deformation by high Y to more canopy curve can be useful. Projected area of kite may become few percent smaller

IDK personally this Airush kite but it sounds reasonable, unlike all other "high" Y stuff

If kite bridle has many pulleys it can adjust itself automatically to different tow point separations (Y split heights). Kites with pulleyless bridles are of course less flexible but they still fly well with different line lengths and front line split heights

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby hookedcook » Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:41 pm

As an amatuer kite boarder with a limited budget and common sense I just buy a north navigator bar and pretty much works for every kite brand except about 3 that I can't afford or don't want to pay for

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby Comet » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:16 pm

the main difference between high and low V setting, is that the high V setting give the kite a little bit of Warping / Twisting. Basically the kite will turn faster and more pivotable around its center axis and with less bar input, indeed all marginally. The higher the V to the kite the more the effect. (with some limits indeed....) To Explain, If you pull on the left steering line, basically there is more pressure on the left site of the briddle than the right side of the briddle, so the V split point moves out of center, this then virtually creates that left front line becomes bit longer (a more straight path) and the right front line bit shorter. (more under an angle). But you can apply H or low V bar on any kite, just indeed tune in correct lengthand it isall about your preference. I fly all on the high V.
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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby nothing2seehere » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:15 am

hookedcook wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:41 pm
As an amatuer kite boarder with a limited budget and common sense I just buy a north navigator bar and pretty much works for every kite brand except about 3 that I can't afford or don't want to pay for
Only as long as you don't mind the differences in line stretch <Runs off to duck and cover :lol: >

In practical effect yes as long as you have a set of gender changers. But you might notice that a kite feels slightly different from one bar to another. Its possible to get an adjustable line splitter. I like the one from kiteattitude as its easier to fit and doesn't need clamping.

The only other thing you need to consider is stopper ball heights. These are generally fitted so that when released, the bar doesn't fly all the way up to the kite. I'd be surprised if any brands don't have far enough but a general rule of thumb is that the travel height should be more than half the span of the kite (better to be about 1 span). Only really something to think about with very large kites or foil kites.

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby dracop » Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:55 pm

SolarSet wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:43 am
dracop wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:28 pm
Ive been flying my Duotone kites on a low V setup (Click Bar with V Distributor removed) and most of the newer ones fly great. The older ones WILL flag out though but flight performance impacted.
Why did you remove it? Just got Click Bar and I will use it with Evo's '22 and was thinking about using Low V so I could easier lunch/land kite.
Others have explained the details:

On newer Duotone kites, the low V will give you more passive power albeit abit slower kite. Higher Y will turn on a dime but a little less passive power. You can trim the kite’s depower to compensate for different center line length (1-2 Clicks on click bar).

When doing an aggressive powered kite loop low to the horizon (eg a megaloop or even getting close to a megaloop), the kite goes smoother on low V.

For higher angle kite loops like a heliloop the High Y makes it complete quickly.

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:20 am

I still say it is bullocks...
Almost a placebo effect IMO.

A few kites might work a tad different with one setup or another, but in general you can use low or high Y/V (with trim offset of course) without noticing any difference.

Just do whatever you like :thumb:

At least, don't worry about it, you can use any setting, on any kite.

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Re: High Y vs Low V bars

Postby edt » Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:38 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:20 am
I still say it is bullocks...
Almost a placebo effect IMO.

A few kites might work a tad different with one setup or another, but in general you can use low or high Y/V (with trim offset of course) without noticing any difference.
It definitely matters on some kites I've seen it. Some kites aren't affected at all, it just depends. Smaller kites I don't think it matters as much. This is one of those things that if it never affects you good for you! Don't worry about it. If however you have been running a high Y kite on a low V and feel the kite isn't acting right, then maybe try the high Y.


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