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Line length, gybing and down-looping

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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:04 am

I must say that in really marginal light wind, (say 4-6 knots) with my 15m medium/high ratio) , I first initiate the loop and then initiate the jibe only when the kite has turn 180 degree and is pointing in the new direction ; not sure it is the best technique in all cases, but it is the only way I found to ensure the kite will pursue its 180 degree turning without being slowed down by a loss of line tension and finish in water; this could also be linked to the kite design, since my kite stops turning with loss of line tension, but it remains as a block , so acceptable if it is positioned in the correct direction (by the time I tension again the line after the jibe) .

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:54 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:04 am
I must say that in really marginal light wind, (say 4-6 knots) with my 15m medium/high ratio) , I first initiate the loop and then initiate the jibe only when the kite has turn 180 degree and is pointing in the new direction ; not sure it is the best technique in all cases, but it is the only way I found to ensure the kite will pursue its 180 degree turning without being slowed down by a loss of line tension and finish in water; this could also be linked to the kite design, since my kite stops turning with loss of line tension, but it remains as a block , so acceptable if it is positioned in the correct direction (by the time I tension again the line after the jibe) .

Hmmm Regis...

The reason why you should carve hard having the kite up high, before turning the kite down, is to ensure you have tight lines all the way around - and that you get a kick in the ass on the way out full speed, beside a tight kite turn.

If you fly the kite around first (also easy to turn it tight), and follow the kite - it will end up with little pull on the way out of the turn instead is my experience, as your lines will go slack when you carve around downwind having turned the kite first - it does not work with LEI kites at least, and find it the same with my foil kite I would say :roll:

But sometimes it can be the only or at least easy way, to make a jibe in marginal winds - maybe you get a touch down at the end where the kite stops pulling for a moment, but at least you are around in a reasonably safe way if you have the kite up high on the new tack :D

8) PF

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:54 pm

Your explanation reaches my english understanding limit but I think I get your point ; I understand that you talk about moving the kite up, while I describes a downloop; I also think that this downloop method would not work with a LEI or a race kite because it will collapse when loosing all tension line during 3-4 seconds ; however in say 4-5 knots, if I change my direction and go toward the kite before having made at least half of the kite loop, due to my apparent speed downwind which is relatively high vs real wind, I loose significant tension and the kite (the Pulsion at least but very few kite would hang up in the air) will stop moving and go in straight line due to this tension loss while I am carving downwind... then the kite dies (too far in the opposite window) or turns too wide and hits the water in case of half loop.

In reality with the 15m2, traction becomes too hard for my 60 kg during the downloop, so I am forced to release the tension by initiating (just a little bit) the turn while the kite has not completelly finished the loop, but in that case I try to turn the hydrofoil the minimum possible to force maintaining a high tension up to the end of the loop, and then I turn tight the hydrofoil to pass the pure downwind direction shortly and point upwind to re-tension again as fast as possible.

But maybe it is a bad habit that the Pulsion allows me because of its really impressive slack line stability ; you can see it a bit in this video at 0:40 (now I try to carve even later but you can see how the Pulsion is immobile until I tension again the lines), at 1:25 (from toeside so I was forced to initiate the turn sooner) , a bit at 3:15 (but carving was still already too early vs what i like to do):
https://vimeo.com/205170218
You can see also at 1:15 a gibe with kite up (no downloop) but I feel I can use this methode only if the wind is a bit higher (here say 8 knots at that moment on the video). I must say I love downloops, so might be biaised :D . And with this wind, any new trick tries is a high risk to swim back to shore :oops:

I think that long lines are an advantage in that configuration. Open to your reaction to maybe better catch your points.

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:22 pm

No Regis, I am only talking about downlooping here, as this is what this thread is about :thumb:

Great turns you make, but if you got a lot of speed, you HAVE to turn before the kite, to keep lines tight - are you using bigger slower wings or faster wings ?

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm

I use a "Custom" prototype of ketos easy but a bit smaller. In between officials freeride and easy.
Ok tanks for the clarification abot loop. But i feel and experienced that if i go toward the kite i get not enough line tension to put the big 15m2 in an short turn radius... am i the only one to experience that in marginal wind ?

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:58 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm
I use a "Custom" prototype of ketos easy but a bit smaller. In between officials freeride and easy.
Ok tanks for the clarification abot loop. But i feel and experienced that if i go toward the kite i get not enough line tension to put the big 15m2 in an short turn radius... am i the only one to experience that in marginal wind ?
You have to make the turn before the kite loops, so when you are already going in the new direction the kite its still looping and you can keep line tension to make it loop in shorter radius.

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby BraCuru » Sun May 19, 2019 7:35 am

Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:35 pm
The most extreme combination I tried is R1V2 17m on 10m lines (and only a 50cm bar even).
It works.
19m R1V2 on 14m lines works well too.
It is all about timing really.
I would say I got the kite following more, after bringing it all the way up before initiating the loop.

Looping to waterstart is a completely different story though! Longer lines needed. But 18m lines should work for that with any kite.
I tried 9m lines with 42cm wide bar and Soul15 yesterday.
Generally it is doable.
I loved angles, speed, control and even jumping.
Tacking is extremely easy.
Gybing requires focusing and often I had to pull for a line to fold a kite's tip before it would touch the water.
Anyway my kite was swimming around ten times within 2h session.
Relaunching in 12+kts was easy however in wind lower than 10kts it was challenging.

To get it planning in winds below 10kts was a nightmare.
Only way I could get going was by doing a kiteloop. I could not believe it. 9m lines and kitellop hahaha.

Wonder to know what is a true upper limit for Soul 15m with such short lines - 30kts?
I rode it with 12 lines in wind not dropping below 20 kts and reached 25kts. I did not touch a depower.

Jumping - not as bad as I thought. I love to jump on long lines but there is time to learn it on short ones.
A day before yesterday - 12m with 9m lines on Soul 8m in 20-27kts
Yesterday - 11m with the same lines on Soul 15m in 14-17kts

Speed - going full downwind I kept 25-27kts speed. For sure the fastest downwind ever for me.
Around 3kts faster than a friend on the same foil, kite and board.
Upwind - around 1,5kts faster than my friend.

Angles.
Upwind at least 3-4 degrees better
Downwind - no difference.

Image

Image

No doubt - I am a fan of short lines and for sure will coninue using 9m lines but Soul 15 would need 50cm bar.
I will keep 42cm bar for Soul 8.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon May 20, 2019 9:39 pm

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:58 pm
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm
I use a "Custom" prototype of ketos easy but a bit smaller. In between officials freeride and easy.
Ok tanks for the clarification abot loop. But i feel and experienced that if i go toward the kite i get not enough line tension to put the big 15m2 in an short turn radius... am i the only one to experience that in marginal wind ?

You have to make the turn before the kite loops, so when you are already going in the new direction the kite its still looping and you can keep line tension to make it loop in shorter radius.

True.

It is a very delicate thing though, and slyde's thread here is great.

Have been looking more on this lately.

How do you jibe in marginal winds, a simple question it seems.

Downlooping you risk the kite does not turn and end in the water, a MAJOR risk.
Which goes for both freeriders as well as kiteracers.

Somewhat an advantage of the higher speed of racefoils, meaning more energy accumulated to transfer into flying through the jibe even with less tight lines.

Downside is of course, it is more difficult to turn tight, and you need more speed to keep foiling throughout the jibe.

Talked to several good racers, and they have the same problem in marginal winds...
Meaning they have to head upwind before the jibe, to avoid the slack lines, and also quite often they need to pull a line by hand if the kite does not turn/downloop fast so it would end up in the water otherwise - quite often resulting in a jibe where they get the board down on the water.
Also necessary to initiate the kite turn before starting the jibe, as otherwise it wont turn/follow.

The tricky balance is, if you carve too early, the kite wont follow and give power, if you carve too late, the kite will fly to the new side and you are "dead" with no power left into and when going out of the jibe.

Anyways, I can follow the trick to fly the kite up and around in marginal winds, at least with long lines, as you CAN make a fully foiling jibe in marginal winds this way, is my experience.

Ride hard upwind, kite quite low but of course not possible to be much under 45 degrees in marginal wind.
Fly the kite up and around and simultaneously start a really tight carve, so the kite passes 12 just before the end of the carve, meaning you can dive the kite for speed and power on the way out, to keep foiling, and switch your feet now.

Essential with long lines, to get a powersweep all the way around, and avoiding the kite reaches the side of the window where power is "gone".

Most often important to depower the kite along the turn, so you dont choke the power - as when riding towards the lines this is needed.

Downlooping works if just a tad more wind, but on the very marginal limit it does not seem very good in my experience.

I have no idea about short lines....

Not good to talk about wind strength, as this can always be misinterpreted and not an absolute value.
But for me at 78 kg I am talking about 5 knots or something like that, where a bigger and light foil kite is needed.

What are your experiences?

8) Peter

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Pedro Marcos » Mon May 20, 2019 10:19 pm

Racers dont point upwind in marginal winds to jibe, they point abit less downwind, maybe to a reach angle if really low.

Problem with longer lines and passing the kite overhead are the angles, you often need to point alot higher upwind to do this, and also on the exit you need to point more upwind as well. Jibes are meant to go downwind, so that's not efficient.

If we are talking only about surviving in the lightest winds, then sure .

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 21, 2019 6:56 am

Yes, only talking about surviving in the lightest wind here.

Many racers only do tacks in this wind, for the same reason.

And by heading upwind it is sometimes just less downwind indeed, for racegear, if a tad over survival wind, your are right Pedro.

The reason for jibing is not only to go downwind, it is because it feels great, like riding waves, "carving is life" :rollgrin:

But challenging "how low can you go" for a flying jibe is always a pleasure, well, at least when you succeed.

8) PF


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