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Flysurfer Peak 4

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elguapo
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby elguapo » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:17 am

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:25 pm
Slappysan wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:19 pm

This doesn't really hold true for someone considering switching to Peak 4's from LEIs.

When you are out in 10 knots on an LEI and it lulls down to 7 knots and you put the kite in the wrong spot it'll simply fall in to the water.
When you are out in 10 knots on a Peak it would literally have to lull to 3 knots before this same thing happened, even then you can loop it to keep it up.

With the Peak it's up to you to steer your kite in to the water, don't be worried about it falling in to the water.

Also consider how the wind dies at your spot. I will routinely go out in 8 knots and have the wind die to 4 knots. At that point I'm swimming in, but the kite is still flying and still helping me get to shore and ends up dry because of how little wind the Peak needs to stay in the air and how well it flies in those winds.
I would put it this way: there's nothing about foiling that makes you more likely to drop the kite, even though you may fall a lot initially. If you have good kite flying skills you should be able to keep the kite flying even when you crash hard. However ... flying a kite in light winds makes you more likely to drop the kite, and if the wind is light enough you may find it difficult, or impossible, to relaunch, regardless of what type of kite it is. The answer is to stay away from trying to foil in light winds until you have reached a certain level of foiling ability.

I would advise not getting a Peak initially ... & not getting a one-strut or no-strut either. Use your regular 9m (preferably a 3 strut) in winds only over 12 knots. At that wind strength keeping a regular kite in the air is not a problem. If you drop it, you should be able to relaunch it. Once you're skilled enough to try foiling in sub-12 knot winds, then you can start thinking about what foiling specific kites you might want to get.
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Strekke » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:08 am

Agree with everything said in this thread so far but would like to point out that the Peak4 does have its limits at its intended use. From frequent posters this might not seems so clear because maybe they don't go out in these conditions, which imo are the sweetspot conditions for this kite. I am talking about light wind 10-12 knots, cross-on, on a large surf foil and peak 5m, but in significant rollers/swell. I have swam in several times from overrunning the kite. The large surf front wing picks up the swell and once you get speed and are on the wave face, there is no stopping and you can outrun the kite quite easily, at which point it can collapse mid-air and just fall down in the water in a little ball. The same wave you were riding by then will roll over it and then it's quite often game over and a swim in. Had this happen to me a few times on the 5m, but never on the 4m, which comes out around 15-16 knots. At that point the wind is strong enough to keep the kite in the air and in shape, even when charging straight at it on a wave. Therefore, in my opinion, that is the absolute sweetspot of the Peaks for wave foiling: 4m in 16 knots in decent swell/rollers. Am actually also considering buying a 3m for those 20+ knot days, where the 4m pulls and flutters too much to keep that smooth feeling you get in the sub 20 knot range.

TL;DR: peaks are great for surf foiling on decent size waves/swell, but sizes 5m and up have their limits also.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:26 am

No kite will stay in the air if you catch decent swell and outrun it in 10 knots. In fact of pretty much any kite out there, these are the least likely to fall and the easiest to recover before they get wet.

Don't you remember that slow mo feeling of dread when your old LEI would begin to turn downward on slack lines and you just knew it in your bones that there was not enough line tension to get it to respond and recover skyward........ takes a fraction of that line tension to correct a Peak4 and it doesn't have to be in the middle of the window either. Can be way out at the sides and your Peak will still respond.

Every kite has limitations.... Kiting has limitations. These kites are so good its sometimes hard to remember that 8 knots is not kiteboarding weather!

Of course 16 knots on a 4m is super sweet. So is 25 on a 3m on super short lines. But mother nature doesn't serve that up as often as I like, so I have a 6m..... and have to say..... It's a beauty of a kite.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jkrug » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:48 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:26 am
I have a 6m..... and have to say..... It's a beauty of a kite.
i really like my 6m as well, but it seems to have an issue...or maybe it's just me. first off, this occurs on all my bars, including my brand new one, so no, my lines don't need replacing. and it doesn't happen with my 8m. when i pull in fairly hard on the bar the kite will lose all power, as in a stall, and start to do a kind of diagonal drop towards the water. when i push the bar out and then push and pull it thereafter, i can recover long before it hits the water. i've learned to handle this fine, but it happens so often i wonder if there's a problem. i've measured the bridle lines according to flysurfer specs and they seem fine. it happens most when i'm using it in slightly underpowered conditions.

anyone else have this happen, or is it just a foil kite characteristic and i need to learn to fly the kite better? btw, i've had the 6m for close to a year now so not a complete newbie with it.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Strekke » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:27 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:26 am
No kite will stay in the air if you catch decent swell and outrun it in 10 knots. In fact of pretty much any kite out there, these are the least likely to fall and the easiest to recover before they get wet.

Don't you remember that slow mo feeling of dread when your old LEI would begin to turn downward on slack lines and you just knew it in your bones that there was not enough line tension to get it to respond and recover skyward........ takes a fraction of that line tension to correct a Peak4 and it doesn't have to be in the middle of the window either. Can be way out at the sides and your Peak will still respond.

Every kite has limitations.... Kiting has limitations. These kites are so good its sometimes hard to remember that 8 knots is not kiteboarding weather!

Of course 16 knots on a 4m is super sweet. So is 25 on a 3m on super short lines. But mother nature doesn't serve that up as often as I like, so I have a 6m..... and have to say..... It's a beauty of a kite.
Agree that for staying in the air/drift, peaks are definitely better than anything else. Recovery on slack lines really depends. As said, my 5m has curled up into a weird little ball several times without regaining shape and just tumbles out of the sky and there's nothing you can do about it. My airush ultra would keep its shape at least and might be more recoverable on a downloop if you jump off in time. But yes, it is a lot less nimble and at the edge of the wind window will not be recoverable without a perfect downloop, while the peak will still react and fly back to 12 if directed there. Regarding relaunch, I disagree on peaks being superior to LEI's. The peak will not come back up most of the time if you are using it for its sweetspot discipline, namely foiling waves. The slightest roller that (inevitably) goes over it will cancel all relaunch possibilities, especially in sub 12 knots. An LEI kite will stay afloat and keep its shape and will still be recoverable after a wave goes over it, wind permitting. So because of these reasons I don't fully agree with your statement "These kites are so good its sometimes hard to remember that 8 knots is not kiteboarding weather!" - if you want to use the peaks for waveriding, 8 knots won't be doable or fun. That's why I also don't think I want a 6m - 9/10 knots is too little to keep the kite up in the air when riding a wave at similar speed, so instead of riding the wave you would have to be too focused on babysitting the kite to keep it perfectly positioned and hope a lull doesn't ruin the party.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:16 pm

jkrug,

Not really sure what that is. Unless your talking about so low end you actually slack line a bit. In which case, see below. The span line (the one the 5th line attaches to) was short on my 6m. I had to use some of the extra line provided in with the kite to fashion a longer one. The kites wingtips would not take proper shape and it definitely reduced peak power. Maybe have a look at that.

Strekke,

I'm not saying the peak is great at relaunching or anything so heretical! I have also had it ball up in the sky when I slack line it. I'm usually pleasantly surprised when it regains shape and we just carry on. In fact I don't think I have had it fall all the way to the water in this way since the really early days. Gotta be a wind drop out now. Regain line tension and you will be surprised at the percentage rate of recovery. Think I even had the kite fully invert through the lines and still regain shape. Rode in to shore to fix it. There is a dark art of knowing if a quick tug on the fronts or a single rear line tug is the right call to facilitate opening but if you can see the kite, you can generally learn which one with a bit of time and practice. Teaching anyone with the 3m on land in light air affords amazing familiarity with peaks that can pay dividends on the water.

In general these are a completely different animals from LEI and closed cell foil. There are a host of new skills to consider.

I think we need to discuss stuff like in water bridle management with this kite to really get the most of it. Everyone imediately thinks of slack, sunk, lines wrapping around your legs and foil, but it certainly doesn't have to be like that at all! In fact it never has to be like that if you simply wrap up the lines properly.

I have been poaching a completely non kiteable spot lately in an previously unusable wind direction and have had opportunities to mess around with swim launch and swim relaunch. The kites have been in the water repeatedly the last few sessions, but its warm and safe and I've had the time to sort it so have yet to swim back in. Can take upwards of 15 min sometimes, especially if you almost get it up but it flops at the last moment, requiring another reboot, but have got the kite up each time from absolutely under water. Whats more, is I'm way better at it now than I was just a couple weeks ago.

There is a whole set of skills to in water management that gets harder the bigger the kite. Sorting a drowned Peak and getting it off the water is something that only a fraction of Peak owners will get decent at, but these are not overly complex skills, they are just nothing like other kites. If the kite goes down in any relatively safe spot, I'm totally confident that provided the wind gets back up to 10 knots, I can get the kite back up with a clean bridle. It's actually way less stress to have a downed peak than many other style kites. There is no pull and it will not sink unless you sink it, it will not twist, unless you twist it, and it will not rats nest unless you rats nest it. Seaweed, strong currents and breaking waves not withstanding, peaks CAN generally be reset with very little risk or drama. Wrap the lines moving to the kite. Wrap all the way up to the tiny grey bridles. Sort the kite. This takes practice, but really comes down to doing as little as possible, set in drift position, unwrap lines, pull up the LE to catch some air and play the tension until the kite takes shape. Then be very patience as you let the tips empty...........................completely, until the kite takes off and flies straight up on its own. Not hard, not even complex, but requires practice to get it down.
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khaakon (Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:37 pm)
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Flyboy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:33 pm

jkrug wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:48 pm
jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:26 am
I have a 6m..... and have to say..... It's a beauty of a kite.
i really like my 6m as well, but it seems to have an issue...or maybe it's just me. first off, this occurs on all my bars, including my brand new one, so no, my lines don't need replacing. and it doesn't happen with my 8m. when i pull in fairly hard on the bar the kite will lose all power, as in a stall, and start to do a kind of diagonal drop towards the water. when i push the bar out and then push and pull it thereafter, i can recover long before it hits the water. i've learned to handle this fine, but it happens so often i wonder if there's a problem. i've measured the bridle lines according to flysurfer specs and they seem fine. it happens most when i'm using it in slightly underpowered conditions.

anyone else have this happen, or is it just a foil kite characteristic and i need to learn to fly the kite better? btw, i've had the 6m for close to a year now so not a complete newbie with it.
It sounds to me like you are back stalling the kite by pulling too hard on the rear lines. Peaks are sensitive to sheeting, especially at their low end. You have to finesse the kite. Every time I have dropped a Peak it's because I have used to much back line pressure while trying to water start underpowered. The kite stalls & if you're not quick to correct it can flip & dive into the water. Usually it's possible to reverse launch from this situation, but again you have to be careful not to oversheet the kite you turn it over or it will stall again & dive back into the water. I've never dropped my 6m, only the 4m, I guess because it reacts so fast.

I appreciate what JTS is saying, but I'm guessing most kiters don't have the skill & commitment to go through the process of learning. I would like to spend some time practicing water relaunches, but at both my local spots the shallows are weedy at this time of year so it's not practical.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:02 pm

I know I sound like a lunatic, but really if you pay attention to a few key things, its all pretty slow, safe and controlled. No tension, no looping, no taking off before your ready.

Practice in safe situations. I am never far from shore and failure cost me nothing but my time.

Key points. Wrap well, wrap lines moving toward the kite, do not pull the kite. this way it will stay on the surface in the position it fell and is far less likely to foul up. Wrap the whole bridle cleanly onto the bar. This not only makes it much safer to swim near the kite, but it pretty much simplifies sorting the kite onto its back into drift position. Pick the most exposed tip, empty it and work once across the kite until the LE is empty, exposed and spread out. Empty the other tip. Unwind the lines as you back pedal upwind letting the kite drift. Once the lines tension, play the fronts to get the kite up into shape, be super patient to let the tips drain completely.

Small kites, short lines and more wind make it all so much easier. Would be a right piece of cake in shallow water. So far I've done all this stuff in deep water where board management is easily half the battle.
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khaakon (Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:36 pm)
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jatem » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:52 am

Strekke wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:08 am
Agree with everything said in this thread so far but would like to point out that the Peak4 does have its limits at its intended use. From frequent posters this might not seems so clear because maybe they don't go out in these conditions, which imo are the sweetspot conditions for this kite. I am talking about light wind 10-12 knots, cross-on, on a large surf foil and peak 5m, but in significant rollers/swell. I have swam in several times from overrunning the kite. The large surf front wing picks up the swell and once you get speed and are on the wave face, there is no stopping and you can outrun the kite quite easily, at which point it can collapse mid-air and just fall down in the water in a little ball. The same wave you were riding by then will roll over it and then it's quite often game over and a swim in. Had this happen to me a few times on the 5m, but never on the 4m, which comes out around 15-16 knots. At that point the wind is strong enough to keep the kite in the air and in shape, even when charging straight at it on a wave. Therefore, in my opinion, that is the absolute sweetspot of the Peaks for wave foiling: 4m in 16 knots in decent swell/rollers. Am actually also considering buying a 3m for those 20+ knot days, where the 4m pulls and flutters too much to keep that smooth feeling you get in the sub 20 knot range.

TL;DR: peaks are great for surf foiling on decent size waves/swell, but sizes 5m and up have their limits also.
I've had some great sessions riding swell with my 5m in cross onshore 10-11 knots, the perfect conditions for clean swell riding at my local. If I'm outrunning the kite, I tend to dive it downwards from up high, and then it will keep shape as it moves very slowly downwards due to minimal line tension. Pointing it downwards keeps the structure of the leading edge as it falls. Leaving the kite high and outrunning can allow it to do the collapse into a heap as it drops backwards, which requires a quick turn of the board upwind and lots of backline pressure to recover.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Onda » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:44 am

Hey experts!
I own a 5 and 8 m² Peak. Use the 5 m² for wave foiling in small waves (maximum hip high).
I´m thinking about getting the 4 m² as well for our wind-generated waves. On the other hand: I can use my 5 m² Core Section from where the 5 m² Peak becomes uncomfortable. The Section in say 16-25 kts is drifting well enough to go down a smallish wave. It is not as good as a Peak, for sure. But the stronger the wind, the smaller the problem of falling kites when going down the line / the wave face.
Do you think the 4 m Peak still makes sense?


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