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Self launch and self land option

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deniska
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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby deniska » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:53 am

CARMELHILL wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm
I understand how some guys are against the hook on the rear bridle and would rather/strongly recommend:
1. using the backstall method
2. emergency centerline
3. edge of wind window and then backstall

I sorta wish kitesurfing was popular enough around here that there was more than 1 or 2 guys on the beach, on a weekday. I went out yesterday and it was just me, one old timer, and one windsurfer.

It really comes down to your needs. My local beaches are so crowded during the peak summer that 2 and 3 can't be used. They also don't work on confined narrow beaches. The tether launch and landing with a LEI kite is probably the ONLY thing I miss about my old kites. I had those tether landings/launches down to a science. Foil kites are ALOT more technical. Pre-inflate, launch, get those wingtips unwrapped and inflated, etc.. It takes practice to figure out what works best. And each kite is different. The Ozone kites react differently than Flysurfer or Pansh. These foil kites I think scare a lot of people that have no experience with them. And they look awfully scary to people that don't know any better, when you do a center-line release landing and it's flopping around crazy on the beach. The back stall landing resulted in two hot relaunches for me when I first bought my kite and rode it for the first time. You can imagine the looks of people on the beach downwind of me.

I also wonder about the wear and tear on the centerline release going through the center of the bar, every single time you go surfing. Especially when your putting your gear back together and there's a ton of sand on the rear line, and your trying to squeeze it back through the centerhole of your bar.
have you considered 5th line to wingtip mod?:
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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby Steve271 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:15 am

Personally I’m finding this thread very helpful as a recent member of the foil kite family. I also watched Jason’s videos and don’t yet feel comfortable solo landing in anything other than very light winds.
One thing I did try and find helpful was practicing braking my kite down a whole bunch of times in some shallower water- this minimized the risk of a hot relaunch and drag across the beach- worst case scenario was a downwind body drag.
Try it- it might help your control too.

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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby airsail » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:53 am

Flysurfer used to supply all kites complete, bar included. FDS was a standard or an option.
I think once the kites were sold kite only, FDS disappeared as the kites were made for any bar, not just Flysurfer.
It was a good system, I used it if I got caught out when self landing when there was too much wind on my 19mtr Speed 2.

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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby Herman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:22 am

There are a number of flag systems that work but most and perhaps arguably all have problems with the risk of overloading attachment points or canopy, simply because of the nature of the beast. Sure you could negate the overload risk by reinforcement but at the cost of performance loss. It is a tricky compromise for the designer. I doubt that people would buy a heavily built foil that had a bullet proof flag system.

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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby joriws » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am

You can fly foilkite almost like 4-line stunt kite ("side slipping" is not easily possible like with stunt kite with steering handles you can do). Just taking control of kite at leader lines (let the bar go but keep chicken loop at your harness) you can control it very precisely and position it anywhere in the wind window. Just build muscle memory for centimeter adjustments and realize that if your hands are 1ft/30cm higher than CL, then *relative* front-back line length changes by height angle of kite so you need to adjust that too on the fly. You can practice at low wind hovering foil kite at different LE-directions at the middle of wind window. You can also tune bar in a way that it oversheets the kite to stop in the air and reverse slowly. Great for positioning kite while riding.

Also when backstalling you can backstall high speed (pulls you) or slow speed (pulling depends on wind speed, usually none) but tension of leader lines relative to kite height angle. Also hot launch is not that hot if you let kite to loose some air while sitting at the TE. And again via leader line control you can control the speed kite lifts off if you want. On semi-empty foilkite I usually just hot launch bar forward.

Tethered landing, well I self-land kite in winter always by backstalling from zenith (low wind) or side (high wind) and when kite TE is on ground I tether it to ice screw previously bored to ice. I tether bar and leaders in backstall position. I also have made brake-line for some kite for easier clipping. Then walk to kite and grab a tip. Then walk arc around tether point, not directly towards tether point and flag out the kite. This also works with sand screw but I am usually too laze to use the proper sand screw. I am not talking about corkscrew type of dog leash screws which can be pulled sideways out of sand but proper one which cannot be pulled from ground.

I am also thinking of first tether CL at kite zenith, then put kite on slow crashing trajectory to side and walk towards kite with hand on that side's steering line to flag it out on backline. But no real need for that but just to experiment if it is a good way when you can tether your kite. But usually crashing to taco-position I described earlier is just fine without tethering.
Last edited by joriws on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby slide » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 am

for back stalling use a long stake i made my own and put ballon weights on it with plz leave kite written in permanent marker , and if the winds strong i stand over it and as i bring the kite down and i'll fall to my knees and drop my landing strop over the stake and imediately move forward as i drop down and release the bar so the kite sits nice
its a 3 movement thing -drop to my knees as the kites comes down and drop the landing line (across the 2 balls) on to the stake and at the same time move your body forward to let the bar go so the kite will sit on the ground nice , i tend to put sand on bottom edge so it doesnt blow about

and for take off i'll kneel on the ground infront of stake and connect up ,standup and give the kite a little shake to get the sand off the kite bottom edge, but as you hold the kite walk to the side holding tension in the lines and try to get 3 or 4 steps to the side and as the kite starts moving take it up the side of the window -every step to the side will take power out of the launch and i have always done it like this with fixed bridle and depower foils
i landboard and i'm mostly on my own on the beach and there are always many razor shells some broken and i cannot allow any kite movement sliding across the beach

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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby br44 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:18 pm

My testing in light winds confirmed that kites fly reasonably well just on the front lines. Once you drop the bar and grab the front lines, you have a big trainer on your hands.

This creates an opening for a controlled self landing like in the video. Could this work in higher winds? Maybe... if the kite is fairly small. Wear gloves, etc. It might also be possible to come up with some kind of device to grab and roll the front lines safely in high winds.

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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby edt » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:21 pm

Literally the only problem with flagging a foil kite from a center line to self land is that it spins like a top. I've often thought there must be some way to keep it from spinning and making spaghetti. If you run another line to the bar you might as well just run the entire kite in 5 line mode and just deal with the bow ties. Maybe if you connect a short line that is usually slack but takes up tension on a center line flag that goes from the Z to the A mixer? There's got to be some way. Stake in the ground is not a bad try we need to keep thinking about this. Stalling the kite isn't sufficient for me I get caught in micro busts squalls and sudden wind changes too much that never show up on the forecast

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Bille
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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby Bille » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:44 am

edt wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:21 pm
... Maybe if you connect a short line that is usually slack but takes up tension on a center line flag that goes from the Z to the A mixer?
...

When i , "Need" to descend rapidly, on my PG ; it's the B lines
that i pull. It folds the kite in 1/2 , and drops me about 1600 ft/min.

Maybe figure out a way to do the same with a ram-air ?

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slide
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Re: Self launch and self land option

Postby slide » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:11 pm

a loverly slow landing is great in a light wind but i really don't like the idea of holding or touching the lines in any way particulary bringing a kite down by lines ,just get a thick landing strap across your balls on the back lines and back stall , even in higher winds its safer than that , you 'll be kiting with less fingers than you were born with if you not careful


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