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Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

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cor
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby cor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:21 am

Didn't read 38 pages so bear with me if that was already posted.

German interview with Flysurfer (Armin) where he also talks about Aluula and other new fabrics: https://gleiten.tv/index.php/video/acti ... /page/436/

Flysurfer is apparently also checking out Aluula (like everyone else I am sure!). He says that it's an amazing material but also is more prone to punctures apparently than todays material. So he has some doubts that it is really ready for the market. Also, FS is researching new materials on their own. It wasn't very clear though if he was talking about materials for foilkites or LEI or maybe both.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Havre » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:18 pm

How does a kite normally puncture? I have only seen a handful of kites puncture and all of them except one was due to crashing the kite hard out of the water. Would today's material distribute the force of that better than Aluula?

And even if Aluula was a worse material for punctures it would have to be a lot worse before I considered it much of an issue.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby cor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm

Havre wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:18 pm
How does a kite normally puncture? I have only seen a handful of kites puncture and all of them except one was due to crashing the kite hard out of the water. Would today's material distribute the force of that better than Aluula?
At around 10:20 in that video he brings an example of a sharp object on a lawn (e.g. a sharp stone, shell, etc.). If the kite would fall on that object, he claims that the Aluula material would be easier to puncture and then potentially damage the bladder than with the material used today. That's the only disadvantage he mentions. Apart from that, he agrees with all the benefits it comes with.
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Havre (Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:05 pm)
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:47 pm

cor wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm
Havre wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:18 pm
How does a kite normally puncture? I have only seen a handful of kites puncture and all of them except one was due to crashing the kite hard out of the water. Would today's material distribute the force of that better than Aluula?
At around 10:20 in that video he brings an example of a sharp object on a lawn (e.g. a sharp stone, shell, etc.). If the kite would fall on that object, he claims that the Aluula material would be easier to puncture and then potentially damage the bladder than with the material used today. That's the only disadvantage he mentions. Apart from that, he agrees with all the benefits it comes with.
Wait! How can Graphene be better (thinner) than Kevlar at stopping a bullet, yet still be more susceptible to puncture? Those of us who have worked with Kevlar know how difficult it is to cut or puncture unless you can actually open up the weave. Given that Graphene is bonded at the molecular level, how sharp of an object would it take to puncture it? Where is this guy getting this theory from?

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby cor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:12 pm

@Matteo V: I have no idea. I am just translating the interview and that's what Armin says. But to me, it does not sound like a theory but actually something he or FS has actually tested (but he does not say that explicitly). Also, Armin is very known for knowing what he is talking about.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Bille » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:50 pm

cor wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm
...

At around 10:20 in that video he brings an example of a sharp object on a lawn (e.g. a sharp stone, shell, etc.). If the kite would fall on that object, he claims that the
Aluula material would be easier to puncture
and then potentially damage the bladder than with the material used today. That's the only disadvantage he mentions. Apart from that, he agrees with all the benefits it comes with.
Sorry for the Bummer here , "But" :
that's kinda, of a HUGE disadvantage !!

A few weeks ago , i had to fold up my 13M Edge ; some schmuck
broke a bottle on the beach and it cut a 12-mm rip in my LE.
YES---- Kevlar , Spectra, or Synthex™ ; all of them , would have
(helped) to stop that rip, from ever happening in the first place.

My newest fake legs are made from a Synthex™ sandwich construction ;
and i haven't bin able to break them.

What good is an expensive material ; that Can puncture easy ?

Bille

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:09 pm

I am still going to wait on for some confirmation on this one. That a material that can be used to make a bullet proof shirt (not a thick vest), is actually more susceptible to punctures/cutting, is a little tough to believe.

I mean I kite lots of locations with everything from "goat head" stickers, sharp point dune grass, and glass. That would be a deal breaker if this is actually true. No way would I pay more for a more delicate, when on the ground, construction. That is waaaayyyyy to big of a flaw for this to be the first mention of it.

Another thing that makes me believe that this is not true, is that this stuff seems to be near impossible to tear as shown in the "weight supporting on a pre-made cut" demonstrations. If a tear won't propagate, how could it be more susceptible to punctures/cutting.

It would be nice if OR would chime in on this one.
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iriejohn (Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:43 pm)
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Sun » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:41 pm

A material’s ability to withstand tearing and punctures are not intrinsically related.

If you have a loosely woven cloth made of fiber with very high tensile strength (Like Kevlar or Spectra/Dyneema), you will probably find it hard to tear, but a point will pass the weave easily. Think of opening the weave on a braided line for splicing.

I am assuming that Aluula has a very open weave to achieve the light weight per unit area, with a membrane between the fibers to close the cloth. This would be contrary to the tighter weave we know in Dacron.

Basically, I think Aluula uses stronger fibers to resist tearing and provide tensile strength, but uses fewer of them to keep the weight down. Punctures are more likely through the fabric due to the open weave.

I am sure that LE bumpers will keep the fabric lifted from the surface in most cases.
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nixmatters (Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:14 pm)
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby nixmatters » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm

Finally someone with a good and logical explanation ^^^ ;)

The looser weave of Aluula is well visible and easy to count in the very first video leaked out by gleiten.tv.

And when we talk about puncture resistance, we need to clearly distinguish between
- puncture from fine 'needle like' object, normally causing small air leakage and easy to repair (patch the bladder)
- cuts in the material by glass, etc. causing material tear (if big enough)
- LE explosion caused by tomahawking the kite in water or on land.
In the first case I assume conventional dacron will be better. In the other 2 - the Aluula.

Dacron has a very tight weave and a melamine resin coating that makes it so stiff (esp. in bias), which is the very reason for its low tear strength. The resin matrix keeps the single yarns from slipping and they break one by one.

ALUULA on the countrary has a loose weave with (apparently) softer coating, which in the case of tear allows the yarns to shift/slip and act like a ripstop - clearly visible in the videos where people are trying to tear it with bare hands. Ironically, the more you try to tear it, the stronger it gets.

Aluula bias stiffness I assume comes from the high modulus of the yarn used, i.e. when warp and weave are tensioned (inflated LE) to the point where the residual elongation of the weave+yarn come close to its anyway low maximum (3% vs ~10% for HT polyester), the bias elongation of the relative open weave increases dramatically.

Graphene function in Aluula has nothing to do with fiber tensile strength, modulus or elongation. It is there to make the coating possible. Just a nano powder added to the liquid UHMWPE (I guess) before fiber extrusion (gell spinning).

I have no involvement in this development and haven't had a chance yet to see or touch the material. It's basic material knowledge and logic.
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Donniehall14 (Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:25 pm)
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:38 pm

The last two posts are excellent explanations. Thank you very much for that.

Seems there is cause for concern on durability with this new material.


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