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Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

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Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:43 pm

It might have been covered a bit, but impossible to find when between all the other kitefoil posts here... (its own forum on kiteforum could have been great, eventhough it is not "kite", but there are most likely not any other forums covering this good)

Besides Wingsurf can also be called Wingfoil in this forum, and I have seen other names.

Anyways, a (kitefoiling) friend of mine have tried it, really fun he says, but the foilwing is waaaaay too big and slow, in his opinion.
Maybe it was 2000 to 2500 cm2.

One might expect that big wings are good for learning, or for really light wind.

And for experienced and a bit more wind, smaller wings might be used.

What are the experiences till now?

I know it is too early in the sport, for these references, but anyways, interesting.

You might even be able to use your big kitefoil wing with a wing and a SUP board, that would be easy :thumb:

Which sizes (foil)wings are used?
The (air)wings range from 4 to 7 m2 it seems, we know that.

Why and what do riders think about foil wing sizes, and whether they want to go even bigger, or smaller to get more speed?

8) Peter

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby gmb13 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:05 pm

The first thing to do is to stop using surface area as a reference. In Wingfoiling the real lifting capabilities of the Front Wing is really important and surface area tells you very little about how early a foil will lift and pump up. Lets get used to talking about Volume and Span.

That said. We are still in early days. There will be quite a few new developments by all the brands. Also Big Wings and not always slow. There are some large span high volume wings that are still capable of going over 20 knots so to paint them all with the same brush is not really helpful.

Obviously small front wings are usually faster and more fun and I try to change down to a smaller wing whenever I can, but I do accept that getting foiling in sub 10 knots, even with a 6 or 7m Wing, is not going to be possible with wings with much less than 3L (3000cm3) Volume.

I can use the Moses 633 and 720 when the wind is above 25 knots, just then the waves have to be big enough that it is worth using such fast wings. I tend to use the 790 the most as it rides the big swells and better.

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:08 pm

Thanks, so our kitefoil big wings are too small in general it seems, for now.

In 25 knots many might ride waveboards instead (if you got waves), as you can ride with 6 m2 LEI kites here.

So no overlap between our big kitefoil surf wings and wingfoil wings :roll:

You need new wing(s) it seems.


Regarding volume (of the wing), it is not a good parameter regarding lift and how early you can start.
Mean camber in percent would be a much better scale to use, if you only were to use one, as it is the most important regarding lift.

An example could be a 15 % thick symmetrical wing, versus a 7 % quite cambered wing, same area and span.

The last one will only have around 40 % of the volume of the first one, if a typical high lift thin profile like the Eppler range, compared to say a NACA 15 % symmetrical one.
But it will also have a max lift coefficient around 1.4 or even 1.5 and less than half the drag at this lift, compared to the twice as thick wing.

So 75 % more lift from the wing less than half the volume, and still half the drag.

But because of the low AR of these wings, the high lifting thin wing will have the double amount of total lift, at 1.4 lift coefficient.
Meaning, bottom line is, it will have 25 % better sink rate, thus it can start earlier and/or require a smaller wing/kite.

If it was high aspect, the difference would be a factor 2, meaning 100 % better.
If EXTREMELY high aspect, we are looking at 10-20 times as good, meaning 1000 to 2000 % better.
It somehow explains why the higher aspect wings starts earlier than the low aspect ones, eventhough the low aspect ones are a lot easier to handle.

Just examples, so using the max lift coefficient at the point where the drag does not increase hugely, if known, would be the best parameter regarding how low you can go in terms of needed kite/wing or wind, IMO.

Back to the wing-wingsizes, bugger the big ones we use for kitefoil still seem too small, as is now :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Kitesitecapecod » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:04 pm

I use a 2500 Fanatic Foil and for me it works great.
I am jibing pretty consistently on the foil now and working on tacks.
I have tried other boards (currently using the SIC Maui 6’ sup foil and while i like the smaller board and will be trying smaller boards the main thing that seems to make this work well is a big foil wing or better said a front wing with a lot of lift!
Riding with other wingers who are 15-30% lighter than me are having a harder time on slingshot 84 infinity wings.

Sorry i don’t have time to write more at this time.
I feel like i have a pretty good
Handle on this new sport now to answer some questions

Loving it!

Philip

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby bragnouff » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:41 pm

Sorry Gunnar, but using volume of the wing looks like a totally bullshitty measure! I won't buy into that!

I think things will get interesting for us kiters, when we can start using wings that are at the bigger end of the kitefoiling spectrum, something like around the 1200-1400cm², but not something that is twice as big. Even if it is possibly a necessary step in the learning curve. Sup foilers that get into WingFoiling are used to their massive wings and kind of don't know any better. My very few foiling runs on a wing were like, OK, I'm foiling, that's kind of cool, but I'm on a fuckin big board that's not even that stable and easy, with a fuckin big foil, it feels kind of sluggish despite some good wind, and couldn't avoid thinking that in those same conditions I'd be on a 5m kite, on a 35L board and a reasonably sized foil like my GoFoil Kai.
As soon as you can compare with kitefoiling, it doesn't stack up that well. It'll only make any kind of sense if used in conditions where kitefoiling isn't possible or practical, and if you are unlucky enough to have lots and lots of those conditions.
I'm not, and the appeal, compared to the need to buy a massive board, and a massive foil, and a wing, isn't that high. But I understand it's a matter of local conditions too.

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby bigtone667 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am

I started winging on a 2000cm2 AXIS (102) low aspect wing. I have since moved to their 1430cm2 AXIS (101) high aspect wing and I am winging around the same range of speeds. What I get from high aspect wing is a much more dynamic fun ride.
And I suspect as I get better, I will be able to continue decreasing the front wing, rear wing and fuselage sizes.
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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Kitesitecapecod » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:22 am

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:41 pm
It'll only make any kind of sense if used in conditions where kitefoiling isn't possible or practical, and if you are unlucky enough to have lots and lots of those conditions.
I'm not, and the appeal, compared to the need to buy a massive board, and a massive foil, and a wing, isn't that high. But I understand it's a matter of local conditions too.
Saturday was 25-35 i don’t kitefoil with less that a 6m and for me kiting in that wind would have been twin tip and a 9 meter.
But for now i am addicted to wing!

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby bragnouff » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:35 am

bigtone667 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am
I started winging on a 2000cm2 AXIS (102) low aspect wing. I have since moved to their 1430cm2 AXIS (101) high aspect wing and I am winging around the same range of speeds. What I get from high aspect wing is a much more dynamic fun ride.
And I suspect as I get better, I will be able to continue decreasing the front wing, rear wing and fuselage sizes.
I see in your profile gear that you also have a spitfire XXLW, have you had a chance to try that for winging?

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby bigtone667 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:07 am

Kitesitecapecod wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:22 am
bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:41 pm
It'll only make any kind of sense if used in conditions where kitefoiling isn't possible or practical, and if you are unlucky enough to have lots and lots of those conditions.
I'm not, and the appeal, compared to the need to buy a massive board, and a massive foil, and a wing, isn't that high. But I understand it's a matter of local conditions too.
Saturday was 25-35 i don’t kitefoil with less that a 6m and for me kiting in that wind would have been twin tip and a 9 meter.
But for now i am addicted to wing!
I was on a 3m duotone wing in 25 to 35 knots Saturday morning and it was magic. Since June ..... 59 kite sessions and 82 wing sessions. I now generally only kite below 15 knots and wing above 15 knots.

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby bigtone667 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:08 am

bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:35 am
bigtone667 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am
I started winging on a 2000cm2 AXIS (102) low aspect wing. I have since moved to their 1430cm2 AXIS (101) high aspect wing and I am winging around the same range of speeds. What I get from high aspect wing is a much more dynamic fun ride.
And I suspect as I get better, I will be able to continue decreasing the front wing, rear wing and fuselage sizes.
I see in your profile gear that you also have a spitfire XXLW, have you had a chance to try that for winging?
No .... but now that you have reminded me about it, I will give it a go. Should be interesting.
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