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why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

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3InletsWindsports
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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby 3InletsWindsports » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:02 am

Agree with PF that as you improve you start moving further back. I’m a straps and lazy foiler just basically not foot switching. I waterstart mostly toeside now if going starboard tack. This shows up the burning in legs if unbalanced stance and every 6 months, it seems, the straps go back a hole.

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby foilholio » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:53 am

On steep wave faces you can need a lot of tail leverage to level the board out if you move quickly into a flatter section. As well to recover ventilation, you need a quick down up motion, but realistically unless your rear foot is already far back the extra room back is of no help.
Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:33 pm
The more experience you get, the further rear you stand.
On the other side, the more experience you get, the more narrow stand you also use when you feel like it ha haa :naughty:
Also, if you want to ride the shortest possible board, standing narrow and a the very back of the board with rear foot, is a necessity.
This. I tend to put my feet where my legs are comfortable with evenish pressure cruising but on waves the rear foot tends to go back like Peter, (I can move my feet on a wave too). Eating shit on a big wave during a bottom turn is not fun :-P Like juggling knives LOL, (thinking is the hydrofoil going to kill me today)
Last edited by foilholio on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby purdyd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:01 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:44 am
A better question may be: why do they have so much of the track so far forward in a position where you could never use it? With my SS DWC 3'6" the plate for my smallest wing (700cm) is positioned only a couple of inches forward of the back of the track. Fortunately, the plate for my Gong foil has two sets of holes, so even though the track on the DWC doesn't go back that far, it's possible to position the plate further back.
There are a few things going on here.

Different companies put the wings different distances from the mast.

The trend to wider larger wings has also increased that distance so the need to be farther back.

I noticed for 2020 slingshot moved the track back in the dwarfcraft.

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby fun2kite » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:23 am

I think we can all agree that a longer tracks covering more of the board, which will give MORE choice of shifting the mast are beneficial. So if the tracks can start all the way in the back and all the way to the point where most boards have them now, everyone would be happy regardless of their position on where the mast would be?
The problem is they all use standard length tracks that can be bought as spare parts. So what we need is a new standard that tracks are “longer”
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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:40 am

edt wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:36 pm
I think usually you want the wing centered directly under the board or maybe a little bit back from it.

When they create wings they generally put the mast in the middle the tail at the back of the fuselage and the wing in front of the mast. Why? I do not know. Anyway, because wing is actually set up in front of the mast that means you need the mast to be behind the center of the board if you want the wing centered so that's what they do.

If instead of putting the wing in front of the mast they put the wing directly under the mast and then had the fuselage and tail coming straight back from that, then you could mount the mast in the center of the board.

Anyway that's how I see it.

From a structural viewpoint only, a centered mast is best.

The reason the wing is in front of the mast though, is because it by far gives the best dynamics in terms of balance and turning.

8) Peter
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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby jkrug » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:25 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:05 am
Will just recite what I said - the more experienced you get, the further rear you stand.

Meaning, the more experienced you get, the more forward you put the mast in the tracks.
this doesn't make sense to me. putting the mast further forward and your stance further back sounds like a recipe for porpoising. i don't care how experienced you are, the physics don't seem to work that way...unless you've got a really wide stance where your front foot is on the nose. that would require massive front foot pressure though. most of the best foilers i see are standing with back foot in front of mast and front foot almost on nose of board (because their boards tend to be <= 36").

anyway, as someone prior said, having longer mast tracks would solve the problem for personal preferences.

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby grigorib » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:21 pm

jkrug wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:25 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:05 am
Will just recite what I said - the more experienced you get, the further rear you stand.

Meaning, the more experienced you get, the more forward you put the mast in the tracks.
this doesn't make sense to me. putting the mast further forward and your stance further back sounds like a recipe for porpoising. i don't care how experienced you are, the physics don't seem to work that way...unless you've got a really wide stance where your front foot is on the nose. that would require massive front foot pressure though. most of the best foilers i see are standing with back foot in front of mast and front foot almost on nose of board (because their boards tend to be <= 36").

anyway, as someone prior said, having longer mast tracks would solve the problem for personal preferences.
When as teenagers we were flying F2D control line airplanes and pretty much nothing else mattered, there were folks who had their planes center of gravity further back (25-30%) and twitchy to the point some of us could barely fly them at all while owners were just fine and precise with them. As people gain expertise they have more finesse and control and might enjoy setups nobody else would ride.
Some enjoy more skatey feeling in the foil, and some call it lack of stability. Different strokes for different folks as they say in ER

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby Flyboy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:55 pm

OK. But has anybody run into the problem that the mast track on their board doesn't go far enough forward to accommodate their stance?

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby lebast » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:33 am

@flyboy
yes that is also possible, to less tail...

In the future the product websites should show us* where the boxes/mounting options are located on the board and hopefully also a measurement for foils, so that everyone will know before trying, that this or that setup works... *same with general product weight

...til then try to find fitting boards and foils from the same brand or talk to dealer, experienced rider (also for trimming the set up in the first place) or get yourself a custom made board/ customize your board/foil.

Why would you want to ride the extra weight of even longer boxes with your UL carbon rig around, when you can have light optimized kf boxes or single inserts?

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Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby airsail » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:34 am

Yep flyboy, my masts are at the front of the tracks. Tried a lot of different foils and wings over the years and every one is slightly different though almost all need to be near the forward part of the track.
Unusually, and I have no idea why, my bigger wings 1100-1200 sqcm provide less front foot pressure than the smaller 600 sqcm wings. I have resorted to shimming the rear stab quite a lot to provide adequate pressure for foot switches etc. And others at my beach have found the same, maybe the extra drag of the bigger wing is dragging the nose down???
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