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Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby longwhitecloud » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:22 am

How much is a 10m, kite only?

Bletti
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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Bletti » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:34 pm

Greenturtle wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:20 pm
madworld wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:13 pm
pikovsg wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:33 am
I loved and always promoted the idea of less weight and more rigidity. Aluula hopefully is that kite, but for over 5-6 years we've already had a much lighter, cheaper and faster turning kite - the BRM Cloud.

10m Aluula - 5.1lbs
10m Cloud - 4.3lbs

A pound lighter. Based on review vids, a good bit faster turning and drifting too. Clouds are almost religiously loved by pretty much every non-race foiler out there, including myself. Yet mainstream reviews for Clouds barely exist, outside of this forum. I don't mean to bark on Aluula at all or turn the discussion to the Clouds. Quite the opposite - major hopes for OR and will be first in line to demo it. It just seems strange that how much hype is going to Aluula tech vs. something we've had for years that's proven to work.

Cloud kites are strut-less and have a small wind range, this Aluula kite has a tremendous wind range and three struts, a very different style of kite. The cloud kites size labeling is weird too.
Weigh posted there for aluula 10m is wrong-
Aluula 10m 1.9kg (4.2lbs)
Same weight as strutless cloud
Have you weighed the Aluula? Unless the demos are significantly heavier the 10m ones sent around for testing recently weighed 4.7 lbs first hand about 10% heavier than a cloud 10.4m. I'll believe the Aluula figures when someone weighs one under the weight of a cloud on a scale but until then cloud is still the lightest Lei on the market. I think Aluula has plenty of potential but still needs to be incorporated more radically in kite design for it to be justified vs much more affordable cloud purchases for me personally. I picked up a 6.2, 8.0, 10.4m set of cloud e with minimal use for the cost of a Aluula 10.4m. I've been thrilled with riding foil and also surfboard with the newest cloud model! The 6.2m is the best surf kite I've ever flown.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby kiteykitekite » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:12 am

Interesting podcast, more advertising though. The increase in range the new kite experiences is wrongly attributed to the material though that would improve the lowend but it's the thinner tube diameter that actually gives the better range. It's strange that kite designers can't grasp this. Especially given how long they have designed these primitive kites.

One concerning thing is that the quoted strength increase of the fabric at 20x seems quite excessive. Especially given the same pressures are used. That is unless there is something about the material that degrades quickly over time. You would need the excess to maintain the materials life longer. So it leads me to doubt the longevity statements about the fabric. If it had better longevity, as stated, then it would suffice to have the fabric be as strong as the replacement, which it is not.

We already know cuben fiber has a terrible life span, could this be similar?

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby purdyd » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:46 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:12 am
Interesting podcast, more advertising though. The increase in range the new kite experiences is wrongly attributed to the material though that would improve the lowend but it's the thinner tube diameter that actually gives the better range. It's strange that kite designers can't grasp this. Especially given how long they have designed these primitive kites.

One concerning thing is that the quoted strength increase of the fabric at 20x seems quite excessive. Especially given the same pressures are used. That is unless there is something about the material that degrades quickly over time. You would need the excess to maintain the materials life longer. So it leads me to doubt the longevity statements about the fabric. If it had better longevity, as stated, then it would suffice to have the fabric be as strong as the replacement, which it is not.

We already know cuben fiber has a terrible life span, could this be similar?
Having owned kites with cuben fiber, their life span was just fine.

The aluula gold is not 20x stronger than the Dacron used in the leading edge.

https://oceanrodeo.com/aluula/?v=7516fd43adaa
5B994B4B-309D-4924-8FDC-003D0870C9AE.png
Notice though the elongation at breaking load.. Aluula like cuben fiber is extremely stiff compared to Dacron.

That means that the leading edge deforms less under load.

This is in part why the kite will have a higher top end.

This increased stiffness and higher strength in turn also allows for smaller than normal diameter leading edges.

It is not clear to me if the ocean rodeo kites do have a smaller than normal leading edge. The roam supposedly had a decrease from the Dacron version but the Dacron roam had a really large leading edge.

Given that woven dyneema is extremely abrasion resistant, I’m going to guess, abrasion is not a issue with aluula. It is possible the coating is not as abrasion resistant.

https://dynsjeans.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwg ... BoQAvD_BwE

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby kiteykitekite » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:28 pm

Maybe I misheard them when they said 20x stronger in the podcast but they have said 5x stronger on multiple occasions. Why then do the actually numbers not reflect that? Because that would be lying.

So there is a contradictory statement you made. You state that the material is stiffer so you can used a thinner LE, but then the LE is stiffer so that is why you blah blah blah. So if you can only make the LE thinner because the material is stiffer that is because making it thinner also makes it less stiff, a well known fact. So it could be likely that the combination of reduced diameter and increased material stiffness has resulted in the same total "stiffness". But is that what has given you more top end? the stiffness? To affect the top end or any aerodynamic quality of something that flies is although affected by structure is though primarily affected by those things that affect aerodynamics, being shape, size and AoA range. By changing the LE diameter you have likely affected them all. That said kites have existed for more than a decade that can do the ranges you claim and better. Although you can depower a 10m kite for 35knots, that does not necessarily make it wise. Foil kites also have little rigidity and do just fine. The majority of a tube kite is still fabric with no rigidity, and you haven't changed that.

To summarize, most of what is stated around this new product is clearly marketing BS. Like with everything that has and is driving kite boarding is marketing BS. Every little repetitive gimmick introduced, all marketing BS. Probably originating in the head of some graphic designer who should have no place designing anything beyond 2D decorative printing, which shouldn't even be on a kite. I welcome new materials, especially stronger and lighter ones. The price for these new kites though will not help the sport at all and only seek it onto a path like windsurfing.

Good luck

Oh and on cuben fiber, just a little googling.

https://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear- ... 83066.html
The trick is avoiding abrasion. Cuben is not good at taking abrasion. Some folks posted reviews of mountaineering sacks that were well beat up from scraping rocks after only one excursion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/com ... ben_fiber/
it's bulky to pack, delaminates under repeated torsion and doesn't handle abrasion well.
Extra good luck Ay!

It's not like the LE on tube kites ever have abrasion problems!

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:39 pm

Do you fly any LEI’s?

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby kiteswede » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:14 pm

Seems great with more stiff construction AND light so you can use it for foil and jumping high.

Today light wind kite doesnt look so robust for hardcore twintip jumping.

Hope more kite companies will adapt to new technology.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby purdyd » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:33 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:28 pm
Maybe I misheard them when they said 20x stronger in the podcast but they have said 5x stronger on multiple occasions. Why then do the actually numbers not reflect that? Because that would be lying.
The quote was 20x stronger in tear, that is not on the chart I showed above. Here you see tear.
01CDDCFE-D4E6-4C8E-BC4D-95E6E94EC24D.png
Start listening again at 12 minutes, there is also discussion of why it has higher range (hint stiffness) around 15 minutes

http://kitesurf365.com/aluula-composites-episode-135

Deflection in a beam inversely proportional to the moment of inertia (I) and modulus of elasticity (E). e ~ 1/EI

I in a tube is a function of the radius cubed r^3

A 25% reduction in radius gives 58% reduction in stiffness. However, it appears that aluula is 10 times suffer than Dacron so the net is a structure with 4 times less deflection.

So yes you can have a thinner diameter leading edge that is stiffer.

I think it entirely possible that aluula might show abrasion more cosmetically but they are getting some hard use. We should be hearing about it soon. The underlying material, woven polyethylene, is extremely abrasion resistant. Think kite lines.
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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby sms-kite » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:30 pm

Hello,

I design tube kite and foil kite since 2003.
I don't know if I am smart or a dude, but I can tell you why I am not running for this new fabric.

First because I don't know really well this fabric.
Second because the factory don't know this fabric
Third because today I know that a kite can ride many hours without trouble for the brands I am working with.

There is a lot of performant fabric in the market. For paraglider for boat sail... Ask a fabric top performance is easy. Built a kite, ask him to be ride at 40 degrés and - 20 degrés, ask him to support crash, rocks.... It is a little bit more complicated.

So we will see how it goes with this new fabric but to me it needs more than 2years of customer test... So révolution or cuben II, we will see in 2 years.

Best regards

Norbert

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby purdyd » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:44 am

sms-kite wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:30 pm
Hello,

I design tube kite and foil kite since 2003.
I don't know if I am smart or a dude, but I can tell you why I am not running for this new fabric.

First because I don't know really well this fabric.
Second because the factory don't know this fabric
Third because today I know that a kite can ride many hours without trouble for the brands I am working with.

There is a lot of performant fabric in the market. For paraglider for boat sail... Ask a fabric top performance is easy. Built a kite, ask him to be ride at 40 degrés and - 20 degrés, ask him to support crash, rocks.... It is a little bit more complicated.

So we will see how it goes with this new fabric but to me it needs more than 2years of customer test... So révolution or cuben II, we will see in 2 years.

Best regards

Norbert
Cuben fiber was quite successful in kites, the best nemesis HP family of kites performed quite well and did not have the issues of the infamous hellfish,

It is not clear to me why best kiteboarding stopped building kites with CF leading edge, it would be interesting to ask Peter Stiewe at elevight.

I conjecture that at the time, the market was changing from big air old school where the nemesis and a stiff leading edge shined,

Perhaps if king of the air was around 10 years ago Cf would have continued,

With Kota, woo height records, and foiling, a lightweight stiff material is very timely,


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