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Kite Surfboard size recommendation

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longwhitecloud
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Re: Kite Surfboard size recommendation

Postby longwhitecloud » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:55 am

Matteo V wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:17 pm
longwhitecloud wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:36 am
Fundamental surfing moves may involve almost stopping eg, a top turn hack , into a tail slide, a bottom turn, stalls to get back to top of wave to set up for next move.
These moves still do not involve buoyant force from volume. In order to shift from planning forces to buoyant force, water needs to be on top of the board, or at least up the sides as far as the equivalent displaced amount of water to produce that buoyant force. The second you actually sink the board, you are now in a position where you have too much drag to get going anyway. Wave power alone will not get a submerged board moving without an extreme cost in time and control of that start. Reducing your ability to get going is not a trick in surfing, any more than coming to a stop is a trick in walking.

And that's even before you get to the fact that stability of a submerged object is increased by its reduced volume / buoyant force. The lower the volume of a submerged object, the more control a rider can have over it when it is submerged.

But the key takeaway here is that all of these moves can be done on a no volume board also, even without kite power.



Volume in prone surfboard design is a detriment in prone surfboard design where actually riding the board is concerned. Volume only exists to assist in getting up on the board when first going from a prone paddling position to a standing position.

Carrying this handicap over to kitesurfing is 100% fashion, and has nothing to do with performance.
The biggest problem with volume is the byproduct of fat rails which are slow as f#$ and also way more likely to slip sideways when pulling in. I have 2 boards similar shape one much more chunky that the other volume wise... in light/moderate winds - ill still take a bit of extra volume to help with flat sections - but sure not too much, it makes a difference for me... not a huge difference (plan shape/rocker makes more difference) but a worthwhile one.

Matteo V
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Re: Kite Surfboard size recommendation

Postby Matteo V » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:17 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:55 am
The biggest problem with volume is the byproduct of fat rails which are slow as f#$ and also way more likely to slip sideways when pulling in.
The biggest problem with volume is its distribution at the centerline of the board, not the rails. Shapers know they can't make the rails too thick, so they put all that extra volume in the center of the board to keep the rails thinner, but thick enough to still paddel with stability. This hump or dome in the center puts the front foot higher, thus creating a longer and less controllable lever arm. That is why good kite specific surf boards get rid of that extra dome shape volume in the center.


longwhitecloud wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:55 am
ill still take a bit of extra volume to help with flat sections - but sure not too much, it makes a difference...
For volume to produce a buoyant force, that volume must be submerged. Once submerged, drag will stop the board and give you virtually no chance of moving again. Volume is not helping you "get through flat sections". Planing surface area, low drag, and weight distribution over the planing force produced by the bottom shape, IS!


Again, this is carry over from prone surfing. All of this idea that volume at speeds greater than 3 knots is important, is a product of prone Surfers being stuck with having too much volume, which hinders maximum performance, in their board. Most Surfers get used to this feeling, and think that it is a good thing. It is correct to say that the feel is more like surfing with a higher volume kite surfboard, but that is because of the limitations that higher volume puts on the system. That volume, however, is no advantage in either sport, once forward motion begins to achieve two to three knots.

longwhitecloud
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Re: Kite Surfboard size recommendation

Postby longwhitecloud » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:49 am

I'd take less volume any day where possible (My current proper kite wind board is 4'11 x 17" x 2") but we will have to beg to differ about a bit of extra volume being useful with kiteboards in light to moderate winds sometimes. I'd rather ride a smaller boards with the extra volume than a bigger outline board with less volume. I Just got a new twin fin for surfing moderate waves and I am sure it would be epic for kiting.. Kite companies should be making twin fins for moderate wave riding with gutless wave steepness if that is what is on your plate.

Matteo V
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Re: Kite Surfboard size recommendation

Postby Matteo V » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:58 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:49 am
......but we will have to beg to differ about a bit of extra volume being useful with kiteboards in light to moderate winds sometimes.
I know I'm going to get crap for beating this one to death, but there's lots of newer kiters with or without prone surfing experience, who are getting set up to believe in something that is demonstrably untrue.

The third best proof of volume being absolutely useless, and any attempt to show that it is useful falling flat on its face, is when you see someone try to actually demonstrate volume being used to hold them up on a stop. When you see these videos or do it yourself, you will notice that it takes about 1 to 2 seconds to slow down to a stop, another second for the board to sink where volume is actually producing a buoyant force, and then another second to violently dive the kite to provide enough power to start moving again because the board is sunk and at the absolute highest drag state it could possibly be in. This is, without question, useless in kitesurfing, and I have yet to see anyone standing on a shortboard or even fun board where it is stopped in displacement mode and that stop helps them get on the next wave. There are literally a hundred ways to avoid this "dead on the water / needing tremendous amounts of kite power to get moving again", state. Here are some,

1. Slow to one knot but keep the kite high and powered up or even wiggle it back and forth to provide lift so that you can travel at 1 knot or less while still utilizing planing forces to keep your body weight that is not supported by the kite from sinking the board.

2. Cut over to toe side and cut back hard upwind. This even lets you look around more so then stopping dead in the water, and you still have momentum to continue with just a little kite power, without having to use a powerful dive of the kite to get going from a submerged state again.

3. Tack, or double tack quickly. This is another way to stop from sinking the board and having to use a tremendous amount of kite power to get going again.


The second best proof that volume is worthless in kite surfing and kiteboarding, is that no twin-tip actually uses volume, even the lightest wind twin tips do not attempt to add volume to the top of the board for any reason.

But the very best proof of volume being useless is that it is seen as detrimental even in prone surfing. Every good good shaper does whatever they can to make the lowest volume prone surfboard, and is constantly battling the question of where can volume that is needed to paddle onto the wave be put so that it does not reduce performance while riding a wave.


The good feeling that most with previous surfing experience described from a high-volume board, is that "corky" feel that they actually like. Sometimes a little bit less control and less performance is it a good thing if you're focused on simulating the limitations of something else. That is the psychology of volume in kitesurf boards.


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